benign neglect?

[squidgirl]

So I got discouraged and quit playing for a few months -- not the first time I've given up on my depressingly untalented whistling endeavors, but at least this time the duration of my non-playing was shorter than ever before (only six months or so). I have a long history of trying to learn musiclal instruments, and getting discouraged by my anti-talent -- which is actually relevant to my point in posting.

I've noticed before, and am really noticing now, how in certain ways my playing improves with neglect -- it's nowhere near as fluent as it was before I quit, but at the same time it doesn't stumble as much. My speed is worse, I've forgotten tunes, but my accuracy is better, and with less effort.

I've been puzzling over this, and what I think happens during these downtimes is that I seem to unlearn certain chronic mistakes. For example, I used to be clumsy and nervous when trying to move smoothly and accurately between c-nat and A, and now that one is pretty comfortable. I used to always squeak and glitch (and thereafter dread and tense up) on fast-ish (for me) runs from A- B-c#-d-e, and now I'm starting to do those while still even keeping the beat.

Does this happen with other people too? If so, which aspects of your playing seem to improve with neglect, and which degenerate? For me, it seems like I've kind of forgotten to fear the chronic trouble spots, and in the absence of tensing up, I actually go ahead and play them right (at least as long as I don't get overambitious and try to play too fast).

A similar thing seems to happen sometimes (but not always) when I've been practicing regularly, then something comes up and I miss a few days in a row.

Does anyone else find themselves wondering why this is so?

Noel

[Tucson Whistler]

A friend and I were talking about this just a couple of days ago. We decided that time away allows your brain to process everything. Too much time away just makes me forget everything, though.

[Plastiman]

Hiya squidgirl,
I seem to recall reading somewhere that posing your subconscious a problem, then forgetting about it, lets the subconscious work on the problem and sort it out, well, subconsciously.
I've played guitar for many years, and have found that when learning a new passage, lead break,chords,tune, whatever that practising it until I hit the wall and stop improving, then letting it rest at least overnight, I am often able to play that passage the next day.
Likewise I will often pose my mind a practical question (how can I fix, make, achieve something) just before going to sleep, and wake up in the morning with the answer in the front of my head.
Likewise with the whistle.
Also, playing any instrument is 5% talent and 95% persistence.
Persist, believe in yourself, pat yourself on the back for every gain you make, and have fun. You WILL get there,
Cheers,
Ian

[narrowdog]

Hi
I agree with whats been said,I played classical guitar for many years (until injury forced me to give up) and I found when I was working on a new piece I could plug away for weeks and hit a plateau, so I would just leave it for maybe a month or so then go back.
It was like I'd never been away and I'd then progress as if it was an old piece I'd been playing for years, parts that were wooden and forced flowed without thinking.
My memory of the piece was also better, i just needed the sheet music as a reminder.
I had read somewhere before that your brain works subconsciously and I think its true.
Also a few short practice sessions can be much better than one long ones.
In an interview I read with Tim O'brian the bluegrass player he said leave your guitar or whatever instrument you play out of its case so when you walk past pick it up and play 32 bars,it reinforces your memory, if you leave it in its case your much less likely to play it because you have to take it out first.
I think with me its about 1% talent 99% persistance and I think I'm being generous but I'm getting there slowly.

Cheers

[brewerpaul]

Sometimes I think if you work too hard on something like music, all you're doing is rehearsing your mistakes. I too have found that a spell away from it makes a big difference.

[Enclose]

When practicing and playing the same tune a lot I tend to improve it first. Doing better and better with every time I play it, but after a while I start making more mistakes again, probably my mind saying 'oy, go play something else, you've done enough if this' or something. So if I stop playing the tune and play it again a couple of hours later I'll do much better again.

[PallasAthena]

Sometimes the act of returning to an activity we "dropped" can give it a new life in that the fact we return to it when we could have just as easily not returned to it sort of reaffirms our commitment/interest/whatever in our minds.
I've found that when I return to something I haven't worked on in a while (like the whistle...), the mindset of "OK, I haven't done this in a while" makes me more forgiving of mistakes, so it allows me to work on things that usually frusturate me. Not that I'd recomend a long break in playing as an ideal way to learn, but maybe a "vacations" now and again are beneficial.

[synecdoche]

My biology teacher used to say that the most effective way to take a test is to read every question first, then start answering them from the beginning. Because our minds are still thinking about those other questions, it'll be easier to answer them once you get there.

I think our subconscious minds have amazing power. I find that putting down my whistles for awhile and picking up, say, the ukulele for a week or two can not only find me sounding better when I pick up the whistle again, but also I find I get more excited to play.

[Belgian_Waffle]

When I used to train for rock climbing, we used to have to force ourselves to rest. But every training manual you read states that for every period of action at least an equal period of rest has to be introduced.

This not only to let the muscles recuperate and build anew but also to avoid mental fatigue. And even more to let the movements sink in. Because just like whistle playing, rock climbing is a lot about "unconscious movement", meaning you have to act without thinking (physicall memory). And somehow, this does not sink in without rest.

The mind is a mysterious and wanderous thing...

And don't get discouraged, Squidgirl, I've been at it for about two years now and my wife still scalds !!

[chas]

I found when I was playing the dulcimer that if I put it down for a few weeks, when I'd pick it back up again I didn't merely play as well as I had before, but as well as I thought I'd be able to play if I'd kept practicing for all that time. I think it was as synecdoche said, that things kept going around in my mind, I'd process licks that were tripping me up, etc.

The only thing was, I'd start losing my calluses. Of course, that happens in spades with the flute. Even a couple of days off and my tone starts going to hell. But I still think in some ways my mechanics and phrasing benefit from time off.

[peeplj]

Sometimes I think if you work too hard on something like music, all you're doing is rehearsing your mistakes. I too have found that a spell away from it makes a big difference.

I think this pretty much hit spot on.

Muscle memory is a two-edged sword: practice something correctly, and you get better at it.

Struggle with something over and over again and you are effectively practicing the mistake. The result of your practice will be that you will be able to play the same mistake very predictably.

Like so many others have noted, I have also found that taking a day or two "off" can help break this cycle.

--James

[sbfluter]

This is good news because it looks like I will be away from my flute for a few months this year. I may have my low whistle to keep me company, but I worry about my embouchure. Perhaps it will improve with time away. That would be nice.

[Mitch]

The "Plateau" phenomonon is pretty well known in musical training.

I've found the best way to get through these quicker is to spend time on technical exercises. As Paul pointed-out, intense practice can often result in rehearsing mistakes. By reverting to technical stuff (scales, arpegios, cuts/taps/rolls etc - with a metronome!), the effort is directed to mastering the body. When the body is then applied to the tunes, it does a better job of it.

I've also found that intense practice can be getting a result, but one's aspiration for the result can lift the bar unreasonably high - it becomes a self-generating failure. A break from it can allow the aspiration to relax to something a bit more sane - and voila - turns out you achieved it after all!

Over-practice can also be a problem - it does not help to associate pain and frustration with the music you love. Keep the aversion-therapy for behaviors you dislike.

[PallasAthena]

I'd like to throw out one word of caution about taking breaks in music.
Taking them for too long or too often can lead to setbacks in terms of endurance, tone quality and such. In other words, you don't want to get "out of shape" from your rests.

Now, if I could only take my own advice...

[Ceili_whistle_man]

Mmmmm..... a strange phenomenon happening here squidgirl with this comment:

I've noticed before, and am really noticing now, how in certain ways my playing improves with neglect

If only it where true for everyone, we would never need to practice anything properly, just bash away at it and stuff it up then come back later and play it better!!
Okay, I am trying to read between the lines here, it seems like you are stumbling over tricky sections of tunes (you mention the A B C# D E run).
Have you tried singling out the tricky phrases and playing them over and over ( slowly at first) to iron out the problem?
How long do you practice for and how long do you play for?
What are your warm up exercises? (I don't mean sit up's!!!!)
I find that if I have not played for a week then those particular runs around A B C# (or natural) tend to stumble a bit until I have fully warmed up.
The more tunes you play with these groupings of notes in them then the easier they will become. Try 'Davy Knick Knack' or 'Rakes of Mallow' for tunes with those nice run around of notes in them.
Rakes of Mallow is a fun tune (and a challenge at speed) that an old whistle player I know used to play when everyone was warmed up and playing fast. He used to start off slow and with each repeat speed up until no one could keep up and there was only one person left playing. (always a different person)
Practice, practice, practice, squidgirl!!!