To cut or to tongue?

[BlackFire_]

I'm having trouble deciding in certain situations whether to cut or to tongue, mainly in Blackthorn Stick's second part, there's something like edd gdd|edd gdd,

and in the Kesh, first part, the same thing, edd gdd, do I cut between the d's or tongue?

Tonguing is way easier and cutting sounds bad unless its really really tight, but I don't want to do it the wrong way and have to relearn it later.

What should I do?

[DCrom]

Cut 'em, I think. It's mostly a matter of practice.

I used to have the same problem, but - though I'm still a so/so player - I now find that cuts are usually easier, not harder, than tonguing.

What might help is NOT trying to cut the e-d-d g-d-d sequences with your "d" finger (R3, if you play right handed). Doing e-d (cut e) d might be harder for you to do with good rhythm at first. Instead, try cutting with L3 or R1.

My two cents -

[StevieJ]

What should I do?

Either is fine. Depends which sound you like best. Taps can be useful too although obviously not to separate ds.

Whatever you decide, you have to get the rhythm right. This page may help: http://www.rogermillington.com/siamsa/b ... jigsI.html

[Petey Whistle]

There are many possibilities. You can cut, cran, triplet, omit a note, hold a note longer, etc.. Whatever technique, practice is the key!

For the Blackthorn stick I tend to either cram a cran into the dd bit you are reffering to, or I simply combine the dd into a single d (with longer time duration).

For the Kesh I typically combine the dd in a single d (of longer time duration). Sometimes I tongue a dd.

[pancelticpiper]

I'm going through this now, switching from the flute, on which I almost never tongued, to the low whistle.
On the high whistle I tongue a lot, on the flute hardly ever...which is best for low whistle? I'm ending up with a hybrid approach, a style halfway between my flute playing and my high whistle playing.
Anyhow so if you're playing high whistle I would try both and go with whichever sounds best to you.
On flute or low whistle I would use cuts as a matter of course, tonguing less often.
Now your question about seperating middle D's, it's funny that many of the "old school" fluteplayers I've heard, who rarely or ever tongue, also do not cut middle D. They would use a "breath push" to seperate those D's. Listen to some of the old guys and you'll hear it.

[crookedtune]

Either is fine. Just don't cut your tongue.

[PallasAthena]

I don't toung at all in The Blackthorn Stick except at the start of phrases. I find using cuts rather than tounging on the repetitive notes makes them feel less repetative.

[Carey]

I'm having trouble deciding in certain situations whether to cut or to tongue, mainly in Blackthorn Stick's second part, there's something like edd gdd|edd gdd,

and in the Kesh, first part, the same thing, edd gdd, do I cut between the d's or tongue?

Tonguing is way easier and cutting sounds bad unless its really really tight, but I don't want to do it the wrong way and have to relearn it later.

What should I do?

If you find there are options like that, practice them both, or them all if you include rolls, taps etc. Whatever you think works, practice it. Then, when you are playing, use one technique for the first time thru, and another for the second, and so forth. Or back to the first, whatever you wish. It's this sort of playing with the tune that makes it interesting. It is NOT doing this sort of playing with the tune that makes it boring, and leads to only two times and on to the next tune in many sessions.

Between my fiddler buddy and I, we like to mix it up for each time through and it makes three or four or five reps fun to play and fun to listen to. Ryan Duns is a great example of using variations to add interest to a tune. Have a listen to some of his stuff on YouTube to see what I'm talking about and it's even done with The Kesh.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnUy349nuqA

Enjoy!

Carey

[Bothrops]

Either is fine. Just don't cut your tongue.

+1

[Cron-Z]

Either is fine. Just don't cut your tongue.

+1

You beat me to it ...
+1 anyway!

[StevieJ]

If you find there are options like that, practice them both, or them all if you include rolls, taps etc. Whatever you think works, practice it. Then, when you are playing, use one technique for the first time thru, and another for the second, and so forth. Or back to the first, whatever you wish. It's this sort of playing with the tune that makes it interesting. It is NOT doing this sort of playing with the tune that makes it boring, and leads to only two times and on to the next tune in many sessions.

This advice sounds very reasonable until you consider the question that was asked - i.e. what to do between two high ds in phrases such as edd gdd|edd gdd

To suggest that varying your treatment of these figures as you go through the tune is - with respect - daft. It will lead to a real dog's breakfast, no style at all, and far from sustaining the interest of the listener who knows this music, it will instantly cause him or her to write you off as someone who hasn't a clue.

There are many possibilities. You can cut, cran, triplet, omit a note, hold a note longer, etc.. Whatever technique, practice is the key!

For the Blackthorn stick I tend to either cram a cran into the dd bit you are reffering to, or I simply combine the dd into a single d (with longer time duration).

For the Kesh I typically combine the dd in a single d (of longer time duration).

Here is a another selection of suggestions that are not appropriate in the context of the question Blackfire asked. In particular, playing a single long d in place of the two ds is a very effective way to put concrete slippers on the tune.

Sorry Blackfire but you really ought to disregard advice like this.

[straycat82]

Time spent practicing cutting is never wasted time. You can only get better/quicker/tighter. I personally prefer the sound of cutting repetitive double notes versus tonguing (most of the time).

Also, don't just look at your options as "tongue or cut". Sometimes a combo makes for a nice kick. Don't look only at double or triple notes as an opportunity for articulation; listen to the pulse for opportunities to exploit the uniqueness of that particular tune.
Consider this:
Tongue the first D and cut the second. This will give it a nice staccato punch and exaggerate the double jig rhythm.
I hear a lot of this type of sound when I listen to staccato styled pipers such as Liam O'Flynn.

[Ceili_whistle_man]

Do what you want Blackfire, but stay away from tonguing, I don't care how easy it may be, it sounds s--t.
Tonguing is not the answer, it should be used as a last resort when there is no other way of articulating between the said two D notes.

[Whitmores75087]

Funny you should mention Kesh Jig. I've never liked the tune. I tried taking out some notes and stripping it down to the basic themes and it sounded better to me without all that staccato, especially in the closing phrases of Part B. Wanderer does about the best job I've heard, and ironically he ornaments the thing heavily all the way through and doesn't drop any notes, so go figure! I guess the message is, if you can do it well, it sounds good. If not, don't do it.

[NicoMoreno]

Do what you want Blackfire, but stay away from tonguing, I don't care how easy it may be, it sounds s--t.
Tonguing is not the answer, it should be used as a last resort when there is no other way of articulating between the said two D notes.

[sarcasm] Yeah, that's obviously true. Tonguing does sound horrible. [/sarcasm]

Maybe you should, you know, actually listen to good irish whistlers?

Here's a start:
Maple Leaf / Man of Aran - lots of tonguing!