Nicholson, the flute master

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johnkerr
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Post by johnkerr »

David Migoya wrote:Marveling at the difficulty of a tune ....in F minor no less....simply points out that ITM has caused flute playing to devolve....and it's beginning to perk up again.
I think I know what you mean by this, David, but you're not saying it very well. ITM did not cause flute playing to devolve. Flute playing in classical music was already highly evolved when the Irish discovered the wooden flute and began to play it in what was already an evolving traditional music that had not until then incorporated the instrument. So flute playing in ITM evolved from that point as a base. Meanwhile, somewhat contemporaneously wooden simple system flute playing in musics other than ITM (such as orchestral music) did begin to die out (the ultimate in devolution), but this had nothing to do with the fact that the simple system flute was being used in ITM, and everything to do with the introduction of the Boehm flute. So it is by no means true that ITM caused flute playing to devolve.

Flute playing in ITM has continuously evolved from its initial starting point. The Irish were obviously not using the full capabilities of the instrument when they first picked it up, and it has taken a while for them to latch on to some of its best features, such as being fully chromatic in every key thanks to the 8 keys. But as you point out, they are now beginning to do that. From the very beginning, though, they began to exploit techniques that are rarely or seldom used in classical music, such as cuts, taps and rolls. If a classical musician picked up the simple system flute now and didn't do those things, you wouldn't say that they were devolving flute playing by not using those techniques. Really, ITM and classical music are two distinct musics that have their own separate evolution paths on the instrument.
Last edited by johnkerr on Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RudallRose
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Post by RudallRose »

you're right, John.
I should have said ITM flute players have caused the caliber of flute playing (as a science, not a genre) to devolve from where the flute was. clearly that's changing now....for thebetter......but I don't know if you will all enjoy where it ends up.

Perhaps that's why the D, G and A keys have been so popular through the centuries? Easy flutes....easy tunes.

The evolution of ITM flute playing is taking a similar cycle we used to see in competitive Fife playing, starting with the easy and clear, cycling to the demonstrably difficult and complex, then cycling back around again until we were at the easy and clear tunes being favored again.

I saw it cycle twice in my 25 years in competitive play (and i've been gone for years now, so no doubt it's gone at least one more cycle)....and know it was twice through in the years before me based on the record of music people played.

I mean, it cycled from simple harmonic renditions of Yankee Doodle to complicated triple-tonguing tunes and classical compositions (I was playing Heifitz's Hora Staccato by the end) and you get the idea.

ITM is taking the same role and we're seeing more triplet-covered tunes....and greater use of musical skills in each passing month. Double-tonguing hasn't yet hit for the most part....but it will. Just wait.

Just amusing how it's crept into ITM.....I wonder if because of the advent of greater recording opportunities? One has to distinguish themselves, so they choose more and more difficult things to set them apart.
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johnkerr
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Post by johnkerr »

David Migoya wrote:ITM is taking the same role and we're seeing more triplet-covered tunes....and greater use of musical skills in each passing month. Double-tonguing hasn't yet hit for the most part....but it will. Just wait.
Those don't have to be the only ways greater virtuosity creeps into flute playing in ITM, although they are probably the most distasteful for the traditional purist. Another path for adding virtousity to one's flute playing would be to make greater use of the keys by taking common tunes in D and G and shifting them into different keys. Fiddlers and box players do this kind of thing all the time, especially those of them who record, so there's always the opportunity for flute players to tag along by fully using the eight keys on their concert-pitch flute instead of picking up a C flute or a Bb flute to play along with them. I myself have undertaken a trivial example of this since I got my 8-key Rudall by playing the common D tune Jim Donoghue's in C, which lets me use my low C a lot. Another avenue for the flute player to branch out would be to play the Dm and Gm fiddle favorites in their "correct" keys instead of shifting them into Em and Am. Matt Molloy played The Moving Cloud in G, but maybe the next generation of Irish flute virtuosos will play it in F where it was written.

Really, there are a lot of other things for us Irish flute players to work on besides double and triple tonguing and throwing in chromatic accidentals like Niall Keegan...
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cocusflute
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Post by cocusflute »

Matt Molloy played The Moving Cloud in G.
Isn't this normally played in D... though fiddlers like to play it in C?
The struggle in Palestine is an American war, waged from Israel, America's most heavily armed foreign base and client state. We don't think of the war in such terms. Its assigned role has been clear: the destruction of Arab culture and nationalism.
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johnkerr
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Post by johnkerr »

cocusflute wrote:
Matt Molloy played The Moving Cloud in G.
Isn't this normally played in D... though fiddlers like to play it in C?
It very well could be. I double-checked the key on thesession.org before posting, and we all know how accurate the tune settings generally are over there, don't we? But it was definitely written by Neillidh Boyle in the lower fiddler's key.
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Post by monkey587 »

johnkerr wrote:
monkey587 wrote: would be as useful as studying the music of the "flute geezers," mcevoy, tansey, molloy, etc..
Next time I see Catherine I'll tell her you referred to her as a geezer, William. I'm sure it will make her day! :D

But don't worry, I don't know either Seamus Tansey or Matt Molloy, so the fact that you think of them as geezers too is safe with me...
You assume that I used the comma incorrectly. Never fear, though, I'm sure I'll be seeing her before you do and I will pin it all on you!
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Rob Sharer
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Post by Rob Sharer »

cocusflute wrote:
Matt Molloy played The Moving Cloud in G.
Isn't this normally played in D... though fiddlers like to play it in C?
F is nice, a la James Kelly/Paddy O'Brien. Cheers,

Rob
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cocusflute
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Post by cocusflute »

Yep-- keys of G and F. F on the fiddle but not so accessible on the flute.
The struggle in Palestine is an American war, waged from Israel, America's most heavily armed foreign base and client state. We don't think of the war in such terms. Its assigned role has been clear: the destruction of Arab culture and nationalism.
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Post by johnkerr »

monkey587 wrote:You assume that I used the comma incorrectly. Never fear, though, I'm sure I'll be seeing her before you do and I will pin it all on you!
Well, I'm a couple of years older than her, so if she's a geezer, what does that make me?

Hmmm. Maybe I should declare myself a geezer and my flute playing might get more respect. Might even be an easier approach toward that goal than practicing, given my age...

PS I guess you're going to Friday Harbor again. Have fun! I'm jealous.
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Post by talasiga »

johnkerr wrote:.....
I think I know what you mean by this, David, but you're not saying it very well. ITM did not cause flute playing to devolve. Flute playing in classical music was already highly evolved when the Irish discovered the wooden flute and began to play it in what was already an evolving traditional music that had not until then incorporated the instrument. So flute playing in ITM evolved from that point as a base. Meanwhile, somewhat contemporaneously wooden simple system flute playing in musics other than ITM (such as orchestral music) did begin to die out (the ultimate in devolution), but this had nothing to do with the fact that the simple system flute was being used in ITM, and everything to do with the introduction of the Boehm flute. So it is by no means true that ITM caused flute playing to devolve.
......
Yes, of course, coincidence does not imply causation ......
qui jure suo utitur neminem laedit
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RudallRose
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Post by RudallRose »

It's accessible, cocus, if you practice with the keys! :)
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Post by rama »

David Migoya wrote:you're right, John.
I should have said ITM flute players have caused the caliber of flute playing (as a science, not a genre) to devolve from where the flute was. clearly that's changing now....for thebetter......but I don't know if you will all enjoy where it ends up.
.
i think boehm certainly may have more to do with modern useage (or lack thereof) of the 8-key flute than i do. hey, i'm not stopping anyone from ordering an 8-key, or trying to play like nicholson! or chris norman for that matter. and i'm sure there are flutemakers who would gladly accomodate anyone who has this interest. they've been waitng for your orders...
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Post by monkey587 »

johnkerr wrote:
monkey587 wrote:You assume that I used the comma incorrectly. Never fear, though, I'm sure I'll be seeing her before you do and I will pin it all on you!
Well, I'm a couple of years older than her, so if she's a geezer, what does that make me?

Hmmm. Maybe I should declare myself a geezer and my flute playing might get more respect. Might even be an easier approach toward that goal than practicing, given my age...

PS I guess you're going to Friday Harbor again. Have fun! I'm jealous.
Yep. I'm looking forward to it a lot!

What I meant was the "flute geezers" AND Catherine AND etc etc
William Bajzek
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cocusflute
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Post by cocusflute »

It's accessible, cocus, if you practice with the keys!
Not so accessible on a six-key...
The struggle in Palestine is an American war, waged from Israel, America's most heavily armed foreign base and client state. We don't think of the war in such terms. Its assigned role has been clear: the destruction of Arab culture and nationalism.
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RudallRose
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Post by RudallRose »

aha!
short footed cocus?
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