Need advice for getting a reedy tone

[Gabriel]

I wanted to write the same Rob wrote. There is no right or wrong way regarding the embouchure. Both approaches work, and it is up to the player to find out which suits him or her best. I personally have to turn the head inwards quite a lot to get the tone I want. But I'm fine with it.

[Cork]

...I like Philip Bate's book "The Flute" quite a bit. He observes: "Broadly speaking, flautists recognize two types of embouchure--tight and relaxed--and these are generally associated with wooden and metal flutes respectively. The wooden flute...requires...more forceful blowing...These requirements give rise to a muscular embouchure...The genius of the metal flute is of a lighter and more ethereal sort, and these instruments respond best to the relaxed embouchure." Admittedly, you can develop a style on the Boehm flute with a tight embouchure--nevertheless, I think there is something in what he says. Also, my understanding is (bracing for flames from Boehm experts here :-) ) that modern Boehm technique is strongly influenced by the French school of the mid-1900s which emphasized a relatively relaxed embouchure. (Doesn't it feel odd to refer to "the 1900's" ?)...

I've read Bate's book too, and a great book it is. He is a definitive authority, indeed.

However, his observation in regard to wood flutes requiring a tighter embouchure really only applies to those flutes with relatively small embouchure holes, and, IMO, perhaps the meaning of "relaxed" could be relative. For instance, about the smallest embouchure I have is on a Baroque one-key flute, and by golly, if one does not play with a small embouchure, then the flute all but refuses to play well. However, even those flutes with small embouchure holes actually benefit with the use of a proportionally relaxed embouchure on the part of the player. What I am trying to say is that no matter how small the embouchure, of the flute and of the player, a relaxed embouchure simply works better than a tight one. Of course, on those flutes with a larger embouchure hole, an even more relaxed player's embouchure can be employed.

Ah, yes, The French School, which I believe got started somewhere around 1885 or so, and there the Boehm flute was mandatory. Actually, the original Boehm design of 1847 apparently suffered in certain ways, and it wasn't until about 1865 or so that appropriate revisions were made to it, to then develop the actual basis of the Boehm flute so well known today. Anyway, the French school took the Boehm flute to its extremes, and because the Boehm embouchure was/is so much larger than (with little exception) a typical wood flute, the larger embouchure simply allowed for a more relaxed player's embouchure.

Therefore, although Bate is correct in saying that the earlier wood flutes with their smaller embouchure holes called for a smaller player's embouchure, and that a flute having a larger embouchure could allow a player to use a larger, naturally more relaxed embouchure, in my experience it seems that all embouchures benefit by being relaxed, with the understanding that smaller embouchures simply can't allow as much in the way of such relaxation.

Anyway, no flames here!

[sbfluter]

What I want to know is how does that Joanie lady get her boehm flute to sound just like a wooden flute? Amazing!

[Rob Sharer]

As I said on another thread, thousands of hours in the simulator!

Rob

[johnkerr]

What I want to know is how does that Joanie lady get her boehm flute to sound just like a wooden flute? Amazing!

Well, she doesn't get it to sound <i>exactly</i> like a wooden flute, just very close. Even with all the edge and reediness that she puts into her sound, there's still that wee bit of tonal purity there that just says "Boehm flute". You have to listen closely to pick it out, but it's there.

I'd like to hear sometime what Joanie could do with a wooden flute. I bet she'd be great with a Rudall. She did tell me once some years ago that she had bought herself a wooden flute (was it a Grinter? I don't think it was an Olwell) and was playing it at home, and maybe she'd eventually work it into her gigs. If she's still playing it, she apparently isn't doing it in public yet although I'm sure she sounds great on it and it's just that her standards are so exacting. Also, she probably likes the facility of the Boehm for playing in fiddler's keys with the band and at sessions.

[tin tin]

I'd like to hear sometime what Joanie could do with a wooden flute. I bet she'd be great with a Rudall. She did tell me once some years ago that she had bought herself a wooden flute (was it a Grinter? I don't think it was an Olwell) and was playing it at home, and maybe she'd eventually work it into her gigs. If she's still playing it, she apparently isn't doing it in public yet although I'm sure she sounds great on it and it's just that her standards are so exacting. Also, she probably likes the facility of the Boehm for playing in fiddler's keys with the band and at sessions.

She briefly tried my Copley this past summer, sounded brilliant, commented on what a good flute it was, and then handed it back, saying "But I don't know how to play these." Right.

[daiv]

if you dont roll in your headjoint, you will never be able to blow into the flute.

I'm sorry, but isn't this a prediction of failure? Never is a long, long time. Cheers,

Rob

yeah. i misread myself.

[Cork]

What I want to know is how does that Joanie lady get her boehm flute to sound just like a wooden flute? Amazing!

Believe it or not, and please, that Boehm flute now in your fingers already has a range of sounds in it, and that a bit of experimenting on your part will find them. Hint: try blowing it in ways you have not yet tried, and, once you have made some discoveries, then try applying those same discoveries to your wood flute. No, you're not going to get exactly the same results, but close, really close.

Silver flutes and wood flutes are not worlds apart.

[flutefry]

It's interesting that the video of Orlaith McAuliff referred to in another thread clearly shows dimples in the corners of her mouth, suggesting that there is muscular contraction in these areas. I've noticed the same thing in videos of Matt Molloy.

So I suspect one reason for the disagreement on 1) tight versus 2) loose vs 3) tight yet loose might lie in differences between how much and where there is tightness. I suspect that tight means tight corners and tight lips, loose is completely relaxed, and that tight and loose reflects contracted corners of the mouth, but relatively relaxed lips where the air is coming out.

My own sense is that if one keeps the corners tight, this is enough to keep the top lip from being pushed outwards by the breath so that the aperture remains small, and the airstream remains directed down. When things are going badly tone-wise for me, I often find that I am tightening my lips around the aperture, which is tiring, and hard to maintain, and then my lips get flabby, and the aperture too large. I also suspect that for many people frowning is the way they achieve or visualize contraction at the corners of their mouths while maintaining relatively relaxed lips.

Hugh. (Read my signature! I am not being silent....)

[daiv]

What I want to know is how does that Joanie lady get her boehm flute to sound just like a wooden flute? Amazing!

Believe it or not, and please, that Boehm flute now in your fingers already has a range of sounds in it, and that a bit of experimenting on your part will find them. Hint: try blowing it in ways you have not yet tried, and, once you have made some discoveries, then try applying those same discoveries to your wood flute. No, you're not going to get exactly the same results, but close, really close.

Silver flutes and wood flutes are not worlds apart.

i agree. i am not familiar very much with her playing, but i can get my copley headjoint to sound indistinguishable from a wooden flute, while on the other hand i can get it to sound sweet and classically.

i suppose it is more work than it is worth, but i grew up playing the silver flute in irish music. i never knew there was a wooden flute until i was about 17.

when i get my computer set up in a couple weeks, i could do another sound sample. i've been working on the angle of my air coming out of my throat, which REALLY makes it sounds like a conical flute. the problem with playing irish music on the silver flute is that you can get the reediness, but that breathy, hollow sound is usually missing, and you end up sounding too brilliant when you pull back.

[norcalbob]

Well this has become a very interesting thread that has got me thinking a lot about my embouchure and tone on both the wooden flute and the Boehm flute. At this point I'm rethinking everything I self-taught myself to do on the Boehm flute in the past 7 years in regards to my embouchure and tone. And since I'm just beginning on the wooden flute, the door is wide open for possibilities.

I watched the Galway embouchure videos on youtube several times and have been trying his techniques too. All of his instructional videos on youtube are really worth watching, if only to hear the variety of tones he is able to produce and the incredible richness and power he has in the lowest notes. It's wonderful just to hear him play scales.

I feel a little anxious about all this experimenting because I don't want to get completely confused about the embouchure I have developed to this point, but all of this discussion has got me thinking that I could emerge from the confusion with significant improvement. For example, I often lose focus and power in the lowest notes of the Boehm flute (low C and B), and notice that I do that similarly with the wooden flute, especially the low D.

So we'll see...

[norcalbob]

flutefry wrote:

It's interesting that the video of Orlaith McAuliff referred to in another thread clearly shows dimples in the corners of her mouth, suggesting that there is muscular contraction in these areas. I've noticed the same thing in videos of Matt Molloy.

I noticed the very same thing after watching some old Bothy Band videos with Molloy. There are a lot of similarities in embouchures of McAuliffe and Molloy from a visual perspective. A little bit of tension seems to be natural for me, but too much tension pulling downward at the corners tends to tire me out quickly, and really doesn't seem to enhance my tone anyway.

Man, the Bothy Band in the mid-70's....hard to imagine it gets much better than that...

[Cork]

...For example, I often lose focus and power in the lowest notes of the Boehm flute (low C and B), and notice that I do that similarly with the wooden flute, especially the low D...

It's no wonder that you could have such troubles. In particular, ditch that POS B foot joint, and put a proper C foot joint on your Boehm flute. Boehm never made a flute with a B foot joint, and therein lies your troubles.

;-)

[rama]

...

[Cork]

...A little bit of tension seems to be natural for me, but too much tension pulling downward at the corners tends to tire me out quickly, and really doesn't seem to enhance my tone anyway...

It's not that you try to pull down the outer corners of your mouth, but that is what naturally happens when you have it right.

You're looking good!