A Whistle Challenge for Peter Laban

MTGuru · Post by **MTGuru** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:18 pm

Just to follow up a bit ... I think Philo's summary captures many of my own thoughts and feelings as well. I won't belabor those issues unnecessarily here.

As for the challenges ... Honestly, I'm not sure that there's one clear point to be made or missed. Peter's follow-up post to his second challenge is reasonable enough, though it focuses on only a few of the many issues raised.

I do think it's hard to pose "challenges" on C&F without coming across as arrogant or worse -- part of my point. We all have our opinions and experiences, and a forum for expressing them. But I'm not sure that any of us has the prerogative to declare "put up or shut up" to prove a point with regard to matters of opinion and taste, however strongly felt.

It would certainly be nice if the whistle forum attracted the active participation of more better-known recording artists, teachers, and respected players to offer a variety of views on issues large and small. Their absence, and of the dialogue and "authoritative" consensus they might foster, is one of the disappointments here.

Barring that, if the result is a periodic and sometimes painful recycling of the same topics, such is the nature of a forum. Arguments are advanced, some ideas may be changed. But in my experience, mass humiliation is seldom an effective tactic for winning over hearts and minds. Something I remind myself of as well.

I don't know if Peter has been to the States before. But a visit to southern California sometime as our guest, to experience first-hand the flavor of ITM in this context, might be interesting. I wonder if he might come away with a more tolerant perspective on the choices people make and the challenges they face elsewhere. I can't supply the air fare, but the margaritas are on me.

Denny · Post by **Denny** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:28 pm

MTGuru wrote:I can't supply the air fare, but the margaritas are on me.

margaritas

that is...like...so...not Irish, dude

....and he was doin' so well....

fel bautista · Post by **fel bautista** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:07 pm

Hey- its a socal sorta thing

Denny · Post by **Denny** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:55 pm

too warm down there, innit!

bepoq · Post by **bepoq** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:08 am

Perhaps it would be worth considering (in light of this discussion and in general) why more players of quality (I use this term in lieu of MT's list of types of good player) don't hang around these boards discussing things.

CranberryDog · Post by **CranberryDog** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 1:16 am

Peter who?

Meanwhile: all along the watchtower .... a wild cat did growl ... Cyril.

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 1:55 am

It would certainly be nice if the whistle forum attracted the active participation of more better-known recording artists, teachers, and respected players to offer a variety of views on issues large and small. Their absence, and of the dialogue and "authoritative" consensus they might foster, is one of the disappointments here.

More people than you realise come here to read 'for a laugh', I have been asked on several occasions why I bother with 'that nonsense' .

A few years ago I was leafing through a collection of music I had just bought. Sean Potts walked into he room and said to me with a big smile 'jaysus Peter, you wouldn't be looking at sheetmusic now would you?'

People don't take part here because they don't want to waste time on that sort of silly discussions and don't want to deal with certain attitudes that ooze from the forums. They get on with playing music and who's to blame them.

I have bothered with this because I am in a position to have a firm understanding and in a way a foot in both camps. I have travelled the long route from outsider to where I am now (and I mean that more in a musical sense than a geographical one although obviously one has bearing on the other). I have an understanding of both positions and the 'blind spots' each positions brings with it.

I have on occasion summarised views I hear around me, general attitudes as I experience them. It usually only results in an ear full of crap and accusations of arrogance and 'name dropping' as if I am to blame for who my friends and companions are and what opinions and attitudes I share with them.

I think it's not a matter of getting people here to get an understanding the attitudes of Californians, it would make a lot more sense for Californians to learn to understand the attitudes that live among the musicians that have the music they (the 'outsiders' if you pardon the use of the word) are trying to play.

Best of luck.

kkrell · Post by **kkrell** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 2:18 am

Peter Laban wrote: I think it's not a matter of getting people here to get an understanding the attitudes of Californians, it would make a lot more sense for Californians to learn to understand the attitudes that live among the musicians that have the music they (the 'outsiders' if you pardon the use of the word) are trying to play.

Best of luck.

Well said, Peter.

Kevin Krell

Killain · Post by **Killain** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 2:46 am

Peter I concur well said... I will leave my opinion at this outsiders are all that are not raised on the music, with the music surronding there lifes. I go to visit family in Ireland and never fail to be amazed at the ability of young and old and how beautiful there music sounds.... Playing by ear and adding there own interpitation with standards of the playing style it is... well before I start saying stuff that could cause WW3 I shall shut my yapper. But truly most all of us not in Ireland fall into the category of outsiders save for a few.. in my opinion of course...

emtor · Post by **emtor** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 4:36 am

Perhaps it would be worth considering why more players of quality don't hang around these boards discussing things.

What if folks like Mary Bergin, Brid O'Donohue and Joannie Madden were members of this board? I do think they've all considered it, and have very good reasons NOT to do so.
I can come up with at least a couple of good reasons for them not wanting to be on this forum:
1) People would try to get free lessons.
2) Any innocent remark about anything would be regarded as gospel by the rest of us.
3) They have a professional life and a private life, and being here could easily swallow up a big chunk of the privat life these people have left.

-Sure . . . I'd like them to be here,-but I'm not so sure they would.

MTGuru · Post by **MTGuru** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 5:50 am

emtor wrote:What if folks like Mary Bergin, Brid O'Donohue and Joannie Madden were members of this board?

Just for the record, Joanie is in fact a member, though she is a very infrequent poster.

Rob Sharer · Post by **Rob Sharer** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 7:42 am

Peter Laban wrote:
I think it's not a matter of getting people here to get an understanding the attitudes of Californians, it would make a lot more sense for Californians to learn to understand the attitudes that live among the musicians that have the music they (the 'outsiders' if you pardon the use of the word) are trying to play.

Best of luck.

This should be required reading. Well said, Peter.

Rob

Romulo · Post by **Romulo** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 7:50 am

Peter Laban wrote:
I have on occasion summarised views I hear around me, general attitudes as I experience them. It usually only results in an ear full of crap and accusations of arrogance and 'name dropping' as if I am to blame for who my friends and companions are and what opinions and attitudes I share with them.

I think it's not a matter of getting people here to get an understanding the attitudes of Californians, it would make a lot more sense for Californians to learn to understand the attitudes that live among the musicians that have the music they (the 'outsiders' if you pardon the use of the word) are trying to play.

Best of luck.

Well said. I hope you keep posting despite of all the "pseudo sapiens" crap around. It's a pity that I didn't record your clips in my computer before you deleted them

. Maybe one more lesson to learn to be grateful and appreciate what one receives...

fearfaoin · Post by **fearfaoin** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:00 am

Peter Laban wrote:I have bothered with this because I am in a position to have a firm understanding and in a way a foot in both camps. I have travelled the long route from outsider to where I am now (and I mean that more in a musical sense than a geographical one although obviously one has bearing on the other).

I would really love it one day if you'd tell this story. A thread called
"Peter Laban's journey" would be most excellent. Though, I'd
understand if you felt that that was too vulnerable a position.

pancelticpiper · Post by **pancelticpiper** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:19 am

Peter Laban wrote: I think it's not a matter of getting people here to get an understanding the attitudes of Californians, it would make a lot more sense for Californians to learn to understand the attitudes that live among the musicians that have the music they (the 'outsiders' if you pardon the use of the word) are trying to play.

I have been careful to keep this in mind the entire time I've played Irish music- 30years now. I have always regarded myself as a non-native who is on a path towards achieving the sound of a native (something by the way which is probably impossible).
When I started out in the 70's a very good American whistle player, who had spent quite a bit of time in Ireland, told me something like "with us, it's always striving for 'that sound'. The people in Ireland don't have to strive for it, because they already have it."
In a way, I have always thought of myself as part musician and part musicologist.
When I've taught Irish music, I never said "I do it this way, so you should do it this way". Rather, I always couch things in terms like "You'll hear them doing it this way". The difference is crucial: One is setting myself up as a model, the other is admitting that I am merely passing along what I've aquired from the observation of Irish players, who are the models for all of us non-natives.