second octave above G

[jemtheflute]

I'm a bit late chipping in here, I know. I too was going to say that O'Carolan tunes cannot be "Waltzes" as such as they predate the Waltz - which evolved out of the Austrian folk dance called the "Lendler" in the late C18th (O'Carolan died in 1738) and burst upon the scene (with scandalous effect - dancers holding each other!) round about the end of the Napoleonic Wars - the great peace conference "Congress of Vienna" being seminal in its acceptance and dispersal due to the high society international social scene that it entailed in 1814-15. See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viennese_Waltz.

That said, of course MTGuru is right that any tune played as a waltz becomes one for functional dance purposes, but I'd also agree that O'Carolan tunes in 3/4 are best interpreted by eschewing a "waltz" feel.

As to Michael's main thread purpose, the issue of intonation in the upper part of the 2nd 8ve is often problematic for us fluters (I've certainly had this problem in the past and still don't always get it right) - the reasons for the tendency to blow out of tune on high A and B have been well described by Cubitt. If you are playing your Olwell, Michael, I'd assume the problem isn't the flute!

I seem to recall a previous thread on this problem with a link to one of James Galway's Youtube tutorial videos (posted by Larry Krantz - there's a bunch of them - very useful for technique on any flute - the one I've linked is just on head-joint, but I think there's another with flutes put together too.....) where he demonstrates the problem of in-tune octave playing and its solution - it is just as much of an issue on Boehm as on simple system flutes. There has to be a narrowing of the lip-hole to increase the speed of the airstream - its intensity - and the airstream also needs to be angled further down into the flute by pushing the top lip out further simultaneously. If you overblow simply by blowing harder to speed up the airstream, you will play sharp. Doing slurred octave overblowing exercises in front of a mirror is a useful first step (and ongoing practice technique) in identifying what you are and are not doing and experimenting with altering your methods. (Whilst of course using your ears to evaluate the sounds you make!)

[mahanpots]

MTGuru wrote:

BTW Michael, the two unknown middle tunes in your swallowunknownhagchurn.mp3 file on box.net are:

Paddy Cronin's
http://www.ibiblio.org/fiddlers/PAA_PAP ... RONIN'S_[1]

Boys of the Town
http://www.ibiblio.org/fiddlers/BOY_BOZ ... HE_TOWN_[1]

Paddy Keenan calls the second one Lost and Found, and also plays it with Hag at the Churn on Long Grazing Acre.

Thanks MTGuru. My laziness and lack of great recall show. I knew those tunes' names, and I refer to the second one above as Lost and Found, from that Paddy Keenan track I believe. When I look at your link to Boys of the Town, the first version there (also called Milltown jig, is one that I play also. I think I've heard Matt Molloy play it on an old record of mine, and when I can remember, I call it Milltown jig. I'm glad you sent me the link because I discovered a variation I could do with Lost and Found.
Lost and Found:
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/1160



ChrisCracknell wrote:

Going back to the issue of the top end of the second octave - I personally find that practising the third octave improves the second one no end. Often the reason for problems that I have is a bit of fear - "ohmigod there's a B coming up! Am I going to get it out right" - and then I either nail it fortissimo or underblow depending on which direction I overcorrect.

I don't think I've ever tried to blow above a third octave E, maybe F, maybe G, but I doubt A or B. I'll give it a try.

Jim Stone mentioned getting a higher pitched flute might help. I've got a really cheap fife, but I'm not sure that would help. I'll keep my eye out for one. Thanks.

Jem, I'll check that link to James' tutorial. Thanks. Slurred octave overblowing is what I'd recommend to someone learning flute, and would indeed be appropriate for learning upper octave blowing, which is what I'm talking about, I guess.

Michael

[jemtheflute]

There was a request for other renditions of Lord Inchiquin up-thread - how could I resist? Yur 'tis, rent ( ), no, I mean rendered - yep, at least I think so (rent apart; rendered down?????) - on my late C19th Rampone 12-key. Would this make O'Carolan proud? (Apparently he liked Italians!) Enjoy! Brickbats graciously received.........

[pancelticpiper]

Well I played Lord Inchiquin just now and to me it sound "right" at about 63. I don't know why. To me it's a sprightly tune, not a flowing elegant tune. I play O Carolan's Quarrell With His Landlady much slower.
About Irish fluteplayers and high B, sometimes it's "smoke and mirrors". I say this because, a few years ago, I was playing Lord Gordon (the reel with a zillion parts) and a fluteplayer friend said something like "how do you get all those high B's so nicely, I always struggle with them." He was talking about the part in Lord Gordon where you have those arpeggios g-b-e. When I played that part more slowly we realised that I was just playing on an even breath and those B's were sort of coming out between the octaves. Played up to speed, they came out like nice softish high B's which blended with the rest of the notes in the phrase. Had I tried to "push out" or support those high B's in a classical way they would have jumped out and, frankly, ruined the phrasing of the tune.
It's a "classical" thing to think of each note as a seperate carefully crafted entity, with an attack, a core, and a decay, and feel a responsibility to play each note as written. It's more "Irish" to play on a flowing even breath and have a "come what may" attitude towards individual notes. Anyhow that's the theory I've come up with from teaching years of workshops, trying to get "classcial" fluteplayers to sound "Irish".

[ChrisCracknell]

The third octave fingerings can vary a lot from flute to flute - even on the Boehm flute, different models can have surprising differences in their response to alternative fingerings at the top end of the scale.

here are the discussions where I posted what works on my two flutes...

http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php ... highlight=

http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php ... sc&start=0

The G is actually a fairly easy note to get. With a vented C-Nat hole on my windward flute it is also surprisingly well in tune.

'bye,

Chris.

[Akiba]

Yeah, I have found the A and B squirrelly on my flutes--currently my A tends to be flat and the B tends to be sharp. In general, this probably has something to do with the Irish flute being maximized for 1st octave performance at the expense of the upper 2nd and 3rd octaves.

One exercise I've found very helpful for working on embouchure is playing harmonics. Start on low D and keep all six fingers down. Sound the low note, then the next harmonic the D an octave above that, then the third harmonic which is the second octave A. Sound all these notes with all fingers down and by adjusting embouchure, either tightening the embouchure as Denny suggested and/or directing the air a little more across the embouchure hole, not by blowing harder. Do it starting on the low E which will go low E, middle E, second octave B. Once you sound the harmonic A, then go to the correct fingering for that note (L1 + L2) and you might then find the "sweet spot" for that note. Do the same when correctly sounding the harmonic B, going to the correct fingering L1.

I think I'll do this myself.

Enjoyed your recordings--solid playing and interesting variations.

[mahanpots]

Thanks for the suggested excercise Akiba. I'll give it a try.

http://www.box.net/shared/17byseqskg Lord Inchiquin
http://www.box.net/shared/pyi7ji0sg8 Milltown jig
http://www.box.net/shared/sox0wcr280 Lost and Found Milltown

I've added an updated version of Planxty Lord Inchiquin, this time with visions of dancing ladies and gents. Sorry about that last note, 3rd octave D.

I also added my version of The Milltown jig, and to top it all off, a version of "Lost and Found Milltown." If you do listen to this one, you can see that the A section of the tunes is similar in a way that I can't describe, but the B section...I had a hard time keeping time while playing to the other tune.

Thanks,

Michael

[jim stone]

Yes, I like that. Can see them dancing.
Life, drama, emphasis.

Beautiful tune, yes?

[jemtheflute]

I've added an updated version of Planxty Lord Inchiquin, this time with visions of dancing ladies and gents. Sorry about that last note, 3rd octave D.

What's wrong with the top D? You hit it nice and softly - not shrill at all. Anyway, I'm always flummoxed by people fussing about going the full two octaves on flutes or whistles - up to 3rd 8ve E shouldn't be difficult for anyone! Better feeling on this take, Michael, though I'm not sure you've judged the ritardando at the end right - didn't quite work for me. If anything, the sharpness and apparent pushed-ness of your top A & B is more apparent this time, at least in some places - and these ones do sound louder than their context. Try and get them like that D!

I also added my version of The Milltown Jig, and to top it all off, a version of Lost and Found Milltown. If you do listen to this one, you can see that the A section of the tunes is similar in a way that I can't describe, but the B section...I had a hard time keeping time while playing to the other tune.

I really like your effort at double tracking! Some nice pearly 2-flute effects coming out there! Interesting how the variant versions of what is essentially the same tune interweave......

[mahanpots]

Jem wrote:

I'm not sure you've judged the ritardando at the end right ...

I had to look that one up, Jem. I like the way that rolls off the tongue, especially if you trill the tongue with that first "r." RRRRRRRReetardando. Your spot-on with that criticism. I've got three versions up on box.net, and I think I like the first one you heard best, and I realize where there's room for improvement. I appreciate the comments from everyone.

Michael