For All History Buffs -- Graphically Disturbing Footage

[Will O'B]

Nothing new here. But it hit me especially hard.

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=qATP3BDgSLc

[susnfx]

It takes me approximately three days to download something from YouTube--thus I have never actually viewed anything on YouTube. Could you describe what it is and why you find it disturbing?

Susan

[I.D.10-t]

It is footage of WWII Japanese kamikaze runs. With some additional footage of their preparation and the after effects of their suicide bombing runs.

[falkbeer]

A very powerful film! But I question the music choise, it made me think of Clint Eastwood when I watched the film. I must be very frightening to have an enemy who is willing to sacrifice his life in a sucide attack. Most soldiers are probably prepared to die defending their country or something they believe strongly in, but a suicide attack is something different. These people had to be fanatic believers in the cause. On a psychological level on might wonder what exatly goes on in kamikaze pilots heads (especially those who missed their targets). The film also made me think of present day suicide bombers in Irak and the 9/11 attack in N.Y.

[Will O'B]

The film also made me think of present day suicide bombers in Irak and the 9/11 attack in N.Y.

It made me think of current events also. The Japanese attacked our fleet at Pearl Harbor. At the point of the Kamakazz attacks, the allies were taking the battle to them (Okinawa being a Japanese territory at that time.) These youngsters flying the suicide planes had other reasons too, but they were also doing what they could to try and defend and protect their homeland and their families from what was surely to come. It was an act of desperation, much like the suicide bombers today. I didn't view the film as the mighty Japanese empire attacking our fleet, but rather groups of individuals taking on the might of the American navy. In desperate times, people resort to desperate measures.

Why did I call the film disturbing? Because of the graphic footage of the planes being blasted and torn apart in the sky. Enemy or not - they were still kids who probably couldn't care less about imperialization and who found themselves mixed up in the war started by the politicians. Much like the kids on all sides of any war at any time in history who are asked to use their bodies as weapons and to die for some "noble" cause.

[Flyingcursor]

I didn't view the film as the mighty Japanese empire attacking our fleet, but rather groups of individuals taking on the might of the American navy. In desperate times, people resort to desperate measures.

Enemy or not - they were still kids who probably couldn't care less about imperialization and who found themselves mixed up in the war started by the politicians. Much like the kids on all sides of any war at any time in history who are asked to use their bodies as weapons and to die for some "noble" cause.

Yes WWII was the worst man-made calamity to befall the planet so far, yet I'm not inclined to approach any historical subject with modern American sensibilities about individuality. To apply that viewpoint to the Japanese of the early 20th century is like applying it to the Spartans at Thermopylae.

[falkbeer]

To apply that viewpoint to the Japanese of the early 20th century is like applying it to the Spartans at Thermopylae.

And why not? The individual soldiers feelings and emotions must be the same at any given point in history. He fighting for king and country, a cause, and the people at home but also for and with his comrades in arms. In the midst of the battle it´s probably the comrades that matters most.

On a political level i see no big differense either at any given point in history.

[Innocent Bystander]

I agree with Falkbeer. The music was just plain wrong. Didn't much like the editing of the clips either. Better with the sound off - but not much.

[jim stone]

They were committing suicide but they were no terrorists--
they were targeting battle ships and aircraft carriers,
not non-combatants. Attacking military targets, right
or wrong, isn't terrorism--at least not by standard
definitions (though this had been expanded for political
purposes).

We were targeting non-combatants,
in fact, with nukes.

As to their mentality, you know these young men believed
the Emperor was a god and many had been trained
since childhood to believe dying in combat an extraordinarily
good way to go. Vastly better than defeat.
THAT was what was unthinkable, not death.
Ritual suicide was part of the culture
and was preferable to dishonor. That whole ethos
was part of these missions. The sake, the ritual
headbands. 'Oh to disembowel oneself in the
springtime when the cherry blossoms fall into
the fresh, red blood!'

Many of the suicide
charges at Imo Jima and other places where the
Japanese were losing were more efforts of soldiers to die in battle
than serious military maneuvers.

And ten, fifteen years
after the war ended, Japanese soldiers on remote Pacific
Islands came out of the jungle and finally surrendered.

I don't think they quite make sense in our terms.

Some senior aviators in Japan, aces, were opposed to the
Kamikaze missions, because they felt these planes
and people should be held in reserve for the defense
of the island in the invasion they thought would come.

[Flyingcursor]

They were committing suicide but they were no terrorists--
they were targeting battle ships and aircraft carriers,
not non-combatants. Attacking military targets, right
or wrong, isn't terrorism--at least not by standard
definitions (though this had been expanded for political
purposes).

We were targeting non-combatants,
in fact, with nukes.

As to their mentality, you know these young men believed
the Emperor was a god and many had been trained
since childhood to believe dying in combat an extraordinarily
good way to go. Vastly better than defeat.
THAT was what was unthinkable, not death.
Ritual suicide was part of the culture
and was preferable to dishonor. That whole ethos
was part of these missions. The sake, the ritual
headbands. 'Oh to disembowel oneself in the
springtime when the cherry blossoms fall into
the fresh, red blood!'

Many of the suicide
charges at Imo Jima and other places where the
Japanese were losing were more efforts of soldiers to die in battle
than serious military maneuvers.

And ten, fifteen years
after the war ended, Japanese soldiers on remote Pacific
Islands came out of the jungle and finally surrendered.

I don't think they quite make sense in our terms.

Some senior aviators in Japan, aces, were opposed to the
Kamikaze missions, because they felt these planes
and people should be held in reserve for the defense
of the island in the invasion they thought would come.

You said it much better than I could have.

[Domhnall]

Everyone interested in Japanese culture should read Shogun. It gives a a great indepth look into the japanese mindset. Much like the mindset of Americans hasn't changed considerably since the west was won (pioneering, enterprising individualism is how I would describe it) the Japanese hasn't changed all that much either. My two cents is that people don't change as quickly as the times do, when you come down to it, folks is folks.

[Will O'B]

I think most of us know, academically anyway, about the Japanese mindset throughout the war. UNDERSTANDING it, from a western mindset, is a different matter. I had always thought that the ritualistic hari kari was an act committed by the Samurai class which I thought were typically officers in the military or high officials. But perhaps I'm wrong about this.

Anyway, the Banzai charges and other suicidal charges were not really so different from the English troops in the first world war marching across no-man's land into the muzzles of machine guns and barbed wire only to be butchered by the thousands time and time again. Or Polish troops on horseback charging German panzers (tanks) in 1939. The reasons may have been different, but the results were devastaingly the same for the soldier. In combat one does not want to be percieved as a coward by those he lives and fights with, nor does he usually want them to go through something without him - that's how tight the bonds are. So, although he is scared to death, he will follow his brothers in arms even when he knows it will be the end of his days. I have no doubt that this feeling played as much of a role with the Japanese soldier as it did with any other. Notwithstanding the Japanese culture of course.

The cultural mindset was undoubtedly widespread, yet there are quite a number of instances where Japanese soldiers wanted to surrender when holed up in the caves, but were killed by a more fanatical comrade. Others who reportedly hesitated at taking part in the suicide charges were shot on the spot by their superior. Some of the Kamikaze pilots deliberately crashed their planes in protest (supposedly) before leaving the mainland. Not all Japanese, I don't think, necessarily bought into the idea of dying for the emperor as being a good thing.

As to their mentality, you know these young men believed
the Emperor was a god and many had been trained
since childhood to believe dying in combat an extraordinarily
good way to go. Vastly better than defeat.
THAT was what was unthinkable, not death.

Maybe someone can help me out here as this has always created a conflict in my mind. If defeat was unthinkable for ALL Japanese under this cultural mindset, and death was far better than surrender, why did they unconditionally surrender? True, there was Hiroshama and Nagasaki. But so what? The bomb was just another way to go out with honor. True, there wouldn't be much left of the homeland in time if the bombings were to keep up, but that shouldn't matter much if everyone is planning to die anyway. And after the Emperor ordered the surrender, why were there no widespread suicide attacks on the occupation forces? When and why did this mindset of death over defeat stop? Not trying to be troublesome here - just curious is all.

[Innocent Bystander]

Incidentally, the story about Polish cavalry troops charging German Panzer tanks was German propaganda. Worked pretty well, too, didn't it?

As far as Japan was concerned, the decision for the surrender was the Emperor's. The Emperor was - is - God on earth. (More so than the Pope.) His decision is more than final - it is shameful even to consider to question it. Despite this, I understand there were a number of suicides.

Many Japanese were sufficiently well informed to know that without absolutely crushing the U.S. Navy, they had no hope of winning the war. And when the U.S. Navy was rebuilt, the outcome was already clear. It was only a matter of how long it was going to take. You don't invoke "Divine Winds" unless the situation is well-nigh hopeless.

[Will O'B]

Incidentally, the story about Polish cavalry troops charging German Panzer tanks was German propaganda. Worked pretty well, too, didn't it?

As far as Japan was concerned, the decision for the surrender was the Emperor's. The Emperor was - is - God on earth. (More so than the Pope.) His decision is more than final - it is shameful even to consider to question it. Despite this, I understand there were a number of suicides.

. . .It was only a matter of how long it was going to take. You don't invoke "Divine Winds" unless the situation is well-nigh hopeless.

Thanks for responding, but I know I saw film footage of the Polish cavalry attacking German panzers. I believe it was on the History Channel about Poland's invasion in September 1939. It may have been German propaganda (which can still be factual) because it was German film being shown. Be that as it may, the horses and horsemen sure looked dead to me when the slaughter was over.

I know the idea of surrender was the Emperor's. Several higher-up military leaders opposed it at first to the point of trying to sabotage it. I still wonder why the Emperor would not have held onto what he was surely taught about death being more honorable than defeat. What was it that was stronger than this ideal and which ultimately led him to unconditionally surrender his country to a race that the Japanese considered their inferiors?

As to the Pope being "God on earth," I'm Roman Catholic and that's the first time I've ever heard him alluded to in any such way. Where did you get such a notion as that? He is regarded by Catholics as Saint Peter's (the first pope under Catholic doctrine) successor. That is hardly being a god.

[cowtime]

I still wonder why the Emperor would not have held onto what he was surely taught about death being more honorable than defeat. What was it that was stronger than this ideal and which ultimately led him to unconditionally surrender his country to a race that the Japanese considered their inferiors? confused

Mind you, this is just my guess, but perhaps because when push comes to shove, sometimes those who are quiet willing for others to die in war are not that inclined to sacrifice themselves ?