What's the best way to do this?

[bradhurley]

Dum-dah-diddly is what I hear Paddy Killoran and Colm O'Donnel do on the A. On the following G's they both play what the Good Brother would refer to as an off-beat long roll: Dum-dah-bla-bla.

as in: EA~A2 BA~A2 | EA~A2 BGAG | E~G3 A~G3 | E~G3 EGD2 ...
.

Nope, the off-beat long roll here would completely change the rhythm (because the emphasis on an offbeat long roll would be dum-DAH-blah-blah) and that's not what they're doing. Lilted out, this tune would start out:

DUM-dah-DIDdly DUM dah DUM dah DUM-dah-DIDdley DUM dah DUM dah...

Not

DUM-dah DIDdly DUM dah DUM dah dum-DAH-blah-blah deedum etc.

Diddly-dee,

Brad

[Bloomfield]

Dum-dah-diddly is what I hear Paddy Killoran and Colm O'Donnel do on the A. On the following G's they both play what the Good Brother would refer to as an off-beat long roll: Dum-dah-bla-bla.

as in: EA~A2 BA~A2 | EA~A2 BGAG | E~G3 A~G3 | E~G3 EGD2 ...
.

Nope, the off-beat long roll here would completely change the rhythm (because the emphasis on an offbeat long roll would be dum-DAH-blah-blah) and that's not what they're doing. Lilted out, this tune would start out:

DUM-dah-DIDdly DUM dah DUM dah DUM-dah-DIDdley DUM dah DUM dah...

Not

DUM-dah DIDdly DUM dah DUM dah dum-DAH-blah-blah deedum etc.

Diddly-dee,

Brad

The offbeat long rolls show up in measure 3. I agree with your first liltographic representation and would continue it like this (I supply bar lines):

DUM-dah-DIDdly DUM dah DUM dah | DUM-dah-DIDdley DUM dah DUM dah | DUM dah-bla-bla DUM dah-bla-bla | DUM dah-bla-bla DUM dah daaaah |

that's how I hear it, anyway. Maybe we'll even get Jonesy to post.

[bradhurley]

Nope, I still disagree -- the rolls on G have the same rhythmic structure as the rolls on A. Putting a long roll (even an "offbeat" long roll) there would change the rhythm because the emphasis and timing are different.

I don't have a recording of myself playing this on flute, but here's one I did on whistle in 2004 for my students back then; you can clearly hear how a two-handed A roll on the whistle doesn't sound as convincing as it does on the flute, but because I'm playing slowly and distinctly you can hear how the dum-dah-diddly pattern is repeated for both the A and G rolls in the first few bars there:

http://homepage.mac.com/bhurley/.Public/mtkisco.mp3

Have a listen...

[Bloomfield]

It's really clear that in measures 11 and 12 (so on the repeat), Colm plays even long rolls. I agree that first time through his G-rolls are closer to the dah-diddly feel of the short rolls. And Paddy (in the clip colomon posted) plays the G-rolls more even than not. But perhaps I am sitting on my ears.

Anyway one ought to have a flute or whistle (or pipes) in hand when discussing stuff like this. I'd better get back to work.

[rama]

EG~G2 and E~G3 are two very different structures. yet many folks continue to notate tunes as though they are interchangeable, which they are not imo.
in maids of mt. cisco EG~G2 fits the structure of the tune as it would in most cases with reels.

btw, welcome back brad!

[johnkerr]

EG~G2 and E~G3 are two very different structures. yet many folks continue to notate tunes as though they are interchangeable, which they are not imo.
in maids of mt. cisco EG~G2 fits the structure of the tune as it would in most cases with reels.

btw, welcome back brad!

Ditto on the welcome back to Brad. I had been wondering what was up with him since I haven't been seeing evidence of his presence in places I got used to seeing it. (Were you in East Durham last summer, Brad? If so, I missed running into you there.)

Now, on to the topic at hand. The discussion of the merits of EG~G2 vs E~G3 just goes to show how pretty much any kind of notation is virtually useless in describing how ITM is actually played. The reality is that there are four notes in this particular figure, which can be written EGGG. Knowing that this is a reel, the experienced Irish player would then have an idea of how these four notes could be swung to make them sound like a reel. (Swung is as good a word as any to describe the variations in note length and emphasis that would provide the feel of a reel to these notes. There of course is not just one way these notes could be swung to sound as a reel, there are many ways with many subtle differences distinguishing them from each other.) Once the player has decided to swing this figure as a reel, then the decision needs to be made on how to separate the four notes from each other so that they each distinctly sound as notes. It's not an issue for the first two (EG) because the change in pitch takes care of that, but something has to be done to separate the three Gs from each other. For the flute player, there are only two ways to separate notes of the same pitch, either by stopping the airflow with the tongue or a glottal stop, or by introducing a cut or a tap between the notes.

So consider these two ways of playing the EGGG figure:

(1) E (slur) G (glottal) G (glottal) G
(2) E (slur) G (cut) G (tap) G

Either one of these if swung correctly will sound like a reel, but if not swung correctly they won't. Now look at the two ways number (2) above can be parsed:

(2a) E (slur) + G (cut) G (tap) G = E + long roll on G = E~G3

(2b) E (slur) + G + (cut) G (tap) G = E + G + short roll on G = EG~G2

Note how (2a) and (2b) are notated differently but are played and will sound exactly the same as each other. The key to how this figure is played is how the four notes EGGG are swung in relation to each other, in order to make them sound like a reel.

I think a lot of people get very confused in trying to describe the difference between a long roll and a short roll. I prefer to not even think of them as two separate things, because as I've shown they both boil down to playing the same note three times in a row, with the first and second notes separated by a cut and the second and third notes separated by a tap. A long roll is just the first note followed by a short roll on the same note. The fingers are moving the same way for both of these sequences, right? The only difference is how the three notes are swung, which is determined by their position in the tune. Consider the sequence GGGE instead of EGGG. This is often written ~G3E, but really it could be written G~G2E just as well, couldn't it? After all, the fingers will move the same way for both, won't they? So why wouldn't it be written that way, then? Simply because writing it G~G2E implies the wrong kind of swing for a reel in most players' minds.

This is why I said above that it's not a good idea to get hung up on ornamentation, in terms of "should I play a roll there or a triplet, and if I want to play a roll should it be a long roll or a short roll?" and other stuff like that. Those are secondary worries, because no matter what you do, if you don't (or can't) play it so the notes come out with the proper swing, it will be wrong. And if you do play it so that the notes come out with the proper swing, then no matter what you do it will be right. EGGG done with glottal stops and the right swing is every bit as perfect as E~G3 or EG~G2 done with the right swing. It's all about how you play it, not how you describe it.

[AaronMalcomb]

I had 1776 posts, which seemed like a good time for a declaration of independence from C&F

(back on topic)

As Brad and rama point out, a long roll, e.g. E~G3, is off the rhythm. Four quavers (1/8th notes) should have an accent on the 1st and 3rd. A long roll in this example would imply an accent on the 2nd which would break the rhythm. A short roll, EG~G2, shifts the accent back to the 3rd.

So would it be just to say that the fundamental difference between a long roll and a short roll is that a long roll is accented before the cut note and the short is accented on the cut note?

[colomon]

Sigh.

Let me go back to first principles here. Can we agree that:

1) Paddy Killoran plays EA (3AAA BA (3AAA but EGGG AGGG? (That is, triplets (or yes, maybe more two sixteenths followed by an eighth) on A, just normal eighths on G.)

2) Colm O'Donnell can be heard playing the same rhythmic figures on the same notes, only in a whistling style? That is, whatever you think he is doing, there is very clearly an audible difference between the way he plays the bits with As and the way he sometimes (but not always) plays the bits with Gs, and that difference seems to echo the way Paddy Killoran plays each?

[sbfluter]

Thank you. This is actually turning out to be a useful discussion. Perhaps now it makes more sense how some flute players muck up the rhythm with their rolls.

I really hate it when the rhythm is mucked up and you're listening to some flute player and it's like more than halfway through the first part before you recognize the rhythm and the tune. I prefer ornamentation be left out so you can hear the tune and feel the soul rather than stick it in and mess up the tune.

Not that rolls automatically muck up the rhythm, but this discussion explains why they quite often do.

I'll see if I can learn to do the example:
(2b) E (slur) + G + (cut) G (tap) G = E + G + short roll on G = EG~G2

To my mind this example sounds more like how you would want it to sound regardless of whether you agree or disagree with the idea of writing it out. Just listening isn't seeing and without a teacher I have no idea what the fingers are actually doing to make those sounds I hear (and half the time, slowed down or not, I simply can't tell what I hear) so written clues have to suffice.

[awildman]

"DUM-dah-DIDdly DUM dah DUM dah DUM-dah-DIDdley DUM dah DUM dah"

I never imagined that somebody would say the above and i would understand perfectly.

[talasiga]

....... The discussion of the merits of EG~G2 vs E~G3 just goes to show how pretty much any kind of notation is virtually useless in describing how ITM is actually played.
.......

This is particularly so with slow air notation. Some people play them whoosh!

[Gordon]

John wrote a well-articulated (pun noted, but not intended) post/response that was really on the mark here, and so far he's been pretty well ignored.. Shame, that.

All this over-analysis of precisely what a particular player does or doesn't do in any particular spot is really missing the point behind ornamentations and Irish playing in general, which is all about rhythm and drive and swing - whatever you want to call it.. These threads start to sound surprisingly more like classical music theory classes than ITM discourses, except for those odd bits where diddly-dums are being argued in complete seriousness -- that's just surreal.

I remember asking Jack Coen what he does, exactly, when I would hear this little rhythmic warble that he does that fit where an off-beat roll might otherwise be placed -- his response was that "I sorta jiggle my finger a bit there." Huh, says I, but damned if it doesn't work pretty well...

[jemtheflute]

So now I kinda understand a bit more what may be meant by the term "short roll" as opposed to "long roll" - always seemed a bit arcane to me! However, in the kind of figure under discussion, I wouldn't do the short roll as described by Brad et al because it sounds weak to me, lacking in rhythmic clarity and on-beat attack - as I said previously, I play the EA quavers slurred, then very lightly tongue the crotchet (or quaver pair or "triplet" or two semi-quavers plus quaver if you prefer) and do a full roll on it within its alloted time, thus EA (tongue)A(cut)A(tap)A. And then the same on the Gs in the case of Maid of Mount Kisco (to give it its correct title, I believe). Obviously these rolls-in-the-time-of-a-crotchet are faster/shorter than rolls-in-the-time-of-a-dotted-crotchet and have a different rhythmic effect in terms of the "swing" of a tune.

[rama]

here are examples of what i mean about ea~a2 and e~a3:

http://www.box.net/shared/n1jgw6fgo8

[johnkerr]

here are examples of what i mean about ea~a2 and e~a3:

http://www.box.net/shared/n1jgw6fgo8

Could you explain what we're supposed to be getting from these examples, rama? The only difference I can hear is that sometimes you're glottal stopping (or perhaps tonguing) between the e and the a, and other times you aren't.