Flute/music fundamentals question

[FLUTEinVT]

Yes - I just got it! After years of playing on even temperment fretted instruments, I'm relatively new to flutes - this converation was puzzling me until I was recently doing some surfing for information on Indian bansuri flutes - those come in different keyes - you can purchase a true "D" flute whose pitches are naturally harmonically relative to the tonic note of D, which on those flutes is interestingly enough xxxooo. Bansuri flutes come in all sizes, from HUGE to TINY, all of course in different keyes. The only one in "C" has a tonic note of "C". Don't now if I got the terminology correct here, but I think I got the concept.

Paul

[sbfluter]

Sounds like there are two meanings to the term "C flute".

A C flute is both:
a) an instrument that plays the same tone as a middle C on a piano when it's fingered to play a C, no matter how many holes or keys it has.
b) an instrument with 6 holes whose lowest note when all fingers are down is C.

So the Sweetheart C flute pictured above will play a C when all fingers are down. It is a C flute.

The Sweetheart D flute pictured above can't play a C unless keys are affixed. However, since the notes it can play match the notes of the piano (D = D, E = E etc), it too is a C instrument.

The Sweetheart C flute above will play a C major scale. So as a diatonic instrument (as opposed to a chromatic one) it's a C flute.

The Sweetheart D flute will play a D major scale. So as a diatonic instrument (as opposed to a chromatic one) it's a D flute.

My Boehm flute, when the F key is pressed, actually simultaneously closes 2 other holes further up the body of the flute. I wonder if it did not do that would it, too, play a D major scale?

[peeplj]

Sounds like there are two meanings to the term "C flute".

A C flute is both:
a) an instrument that plays the same tone as a middle C on a piano when it's fingered to play a C, no matter how many holes or keys it has.
b) an instrument with 6 holes whose lowest note when all fingers are down is C.

So the Sweetheart C flute pictured above will play a C when all fingers are down. It is a C flute.

The Sweetheart D flute pictured above can't play a C unless keys are affixed. However, since the notes it can play match the notes of the piano (D = D, E = E etc), it too is a C instrument.

The Sweetheart C flute above will play a C major scale. So as a diatonic instrument (as opposed to a chromatic one) it's a C flute.

The Sweetheart D flute will play a D major scale. So as a diatonic instrument (as opposed to a chromatic one) it's a D flute.

My Boehm flute, when the F key is pressed, actually simultaneously closes 2 other holes further up the body of the flute. I wonder if it did not do that would it, too, play a D major scale?

Yep, you got it!

And yes, if you look at the way the mechanism works on a Boehm-system flute, it doesn't take long to conclude that it is also built around the D major scale, like the 8-key flute before it, and like the classical flute before that, and like the Baroque traverso before that.

Just one minor note: not all C instruments will play middle C on a piano when they play C. A piccolo, for instance, is also in C, but one octave higher.

--James

[Cork]

Which flute?

I am reminded of an act done many years ago (before I was born) by the comedians Abbot and Costello, about a certain game of baseball, in which, who's on first, what's his name is on second, and I don't know is on third...

:-D

Ho dee hum! The C is really a D.
You don't understand, buster. That's not really a D; it's a C. See?

Exactly, that's the spirit!

[Cork]

.......
When I was in Ireland last summer, it was clear to me that people were driving on the wrong side of the road.
.....

That's not quite right.
"Right" has two antonyms: "wrong" and "left".
You have used the wrong antonym in the above sentence.

I think you're both confused. When it comes to driving, the antonym of "left" is "wrong"! (Obviously ... how can the French be "right"? :lol: ) We Brits of course drive on the right (correct) side of the road. Driving on the wrong side is counter-intuitive in a world of predominantly left cerebral dominance - just like playing flute on the wrong side! Ha! :wink: :D

Strictly subjectively, it seems far more natural to keep the dominant R hand on the steering wheel and change gear with the non-dominant L hand - perhaps that's why most Americans cop out and drive automatics? Any one seen that big can of worms we mislaid on-line somewhere?

As a way off topic can of worms, and perhaps as worthy of further investigation, in the very earliest years of American automobile manufacturing, in perhaps just the first few years or so, apparently a number of American manufacturers did build right hand drive automobiles, such as used in the UK and elsewhere. For some reason, however, a left hand drive convention was then adopted, but just why remains the mystery.

Edit: Just to make things more interesting, it seems that left hand drive is used on the right hand side of the road, and that right hand drive is used on the left hand side of the road. There, that should help to bring this post back on topic.

[talasiga]

Yes, the white keys were arbitrarily set on the keyboard instrumnets to give you C major / A natural minor. That is they give you the easy run on the easy scale (easy key wise, easy letter notation wise) The D mode in the key of C is not D major as on an Irish flute but D Dorian whose notes are D E F G A B C D+ et seq..

There is literally no nexus between the C scale on a piano and the D scale on an Irish or other diatonic flute other the nexus of the notes D E G A and B and even that nexus will only be there if the flute maker has made the flute EQUAL TEMPERED and in concert p[itch.

You cannot play a keyless Irish D flute for any compositions in C key signature or A min key signature.. QED.

[Cork]

...My Boehm flute, when the F key is pressed, actually simultaneously closes 2 other holes further up the body of the flute. I wonder if it did not do that would it, too, play a D major scale?

In regard to your post, it appears that you have a correct understanding, yes(!), but let me add a comment about the Boehm flute. That is, obviously if the upper two holes were not simultaneously covered when the Boehm F key is pressed then the flute could not play a D major scale, which is to say that the Boehm mechanism is a radical departure from the mechanisms of earlier flutes.

The Boehm flute was expressly designed to be chromatic, from the get go, unlike any of its predecessors. However, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to discover that the model for the Boehm flute is the older, six holed flute.

Personally, I see them, the Irish D flute and the Boehm C flute, as two different flutes, and play them that way. For instance, I rarely ever play ITM on a Boehm flute, although ITM can sound really good on a Boehm flute (further comment deleted), and that has much to do with the R1 vs. R3 F# difference, respectively. That is, on the Irish flute I stick with ITM, and on the Boehm I go to Baroque, and elsewhere.

[awildman]

Quite right. A D flute has nothing to do with a c scale. Or a piano in c. The c scale in general is merely a point of reference to tie instruments designed differently together. A D flute is only a D flute based on a piano scale of C.

A note's name is only relative. The Do of the D flute major scale is one whole step above the Do of the white keys' major scale on the piano. By having a definitive reference point in a c scale, we should have less confusion. Should. Notwithstanding differently tempered scales, of course.

[fyffer]

To add a little more pointless humor ...

I've always found it interesting that my keyless flute plays very nicely in the key of D. And G, too. So, my keyless flute is keyed.

My keyed flute plays in every key quite nicely, making it essentially keyless.

[talasiga]

If your flute can play in one or more keys without needing keys its keyless
and if your flute can play one or more keys using keys its keyed.
See?

[jemtheflute]

So what's the key to understanding this key thing, then? And why do folk get so keyed-up about it?

[talasiga]

the key to easy understanding does not lie in the English language .....

[MTGuru]

My related post over in the whistle forum may also be helpful.

http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php ... ht=#726416