Sindt waiting time reduced to one week

Blayne Chastain · Post by **Blayne Chastain** » Mon Nov 18, 2002 2:23 pm

Well put... I wouldn't worry about it too much though... I would just trust John & Ann's judgement and let the chips fall where they may. If I was making whistles and just dealing direct I wouldn't have a problem with this unless I got too burdened by retailers orders. 6 whistles aren't going to push the wait list too far... Also... the reason why I didn't comment when I saw them in Lark's catalog last week was because I didn't think these prices were as relevant to us - but to those visiting the shops or to those not as much into the Internet thing... Anyway... Another thing... I'm sure that Lark didn't HAVE to have these whistles...they are probably doing just fine... To give them the benefit of the doubt... I will just assume that they would like to provide these whistles as a service to their customers... I waited about 8 months for my whistles from the Sindts... But your average cat coming into a shop while on Vacation in Seattle probably isn't used to that sort of thing... That said... I would pay $160 for a Sindt if they were charging that much... (that's how much I dig the whistles...especially the high ones) I wouldn't worry about that though... I think that the Sindts are basing their prices upon the "Reasonable Person Principle..." Of couse they still may be charging too little...

Meh... (meaning...."whatever...")

Azalin · Post by **Azalin** » Mon Nov 18, 2002 2:28 pm

Actually, Sindt *is* selling for 180$US, but we get a 50% rebate because the cross fingered "C nat" is sharp

ChrisLaughlin · Post by **ChrisLaughlin** » Mon Nov 18, 2002 2:34 pm

LOL!
Ya know, it's strange... the C natural problem only exists on his D whistles. I have a complete set and none of the others seem to be effected.
Chris

Zubivka · Post by **Zubivka** » Mon Nov 18, 2002 6:00 pm

On 2002-11-18 14:54, vaporlock wrote:
(...) I would merely think of it as part of doing business.

I wonder why I think of it that way. Is my brain alone in this line of thinking?

No you’re not alone. Here’s the big-mouth Frenchie again.

Take your shnorkel and wet suit, or skip this post : it’s a long dive, muddy waters...

I understand this is a passion board; hey, this why we all visit it, don’t we ? However, the controversy in this thread is about business. We’re not talking harmony, or interpretation, just money.

I happen to do a similar business to Mr Sindt’s. Except I sell photo prints, not whistles. When I exhibit them, any visitor can buy them at say, 100. Hundred Units (U) whatever they are. I sell direct and only limited runs, numbered 1-15.
However, art gallery owners also come in--some do and ask if they can exhibit/sell my work. I sell to them at the same price. I know they have to do a living, and respect it. So they're welcome to hike the price at 200 U's. This is a common raw margin for any retail business (clothes, novelties are much worse, start from a 300% multiplier). They know it's the game ; they know they sell in places and to people I don't reach, or not all year round. I also don't have to pay their rent on a chic avenue.
I wouldn’t even mind them selling at U 300 or 400. This case hasn’t happened yet

or I would definitely have hiked my prices at my next show.

Now, what would be dishonest from my gallerist would be taking my whole stock, making me sign some exclusivity contract, paying me less than what I usually get, and not selling more pieces per year at that. I.e. I'd work more or same, and get less money. This would be your typical mass retail attitude with many small brands--called exclusive buyer's market. In this case, you have to drop such a wholesaler, while you still can. Or find his direct competition so you don’t massively depend on one sole customer. This is different, and Americans used to enforce anti-trust laws, right ?

To me there are honest gallerists like the one who kept Soutine painting by buying his canvases when there was no market for them ; he paid cheap, but that kept the guy alive, unsober and painting. The dishonest one was he, who pushed Modigliani to death, than came and purchased the whole stock from a totally lost widow.

So, if you craftsman's backorder list grows up to several years, it may be time for him to reconsider either his pricelist (and remain a craftsman) or grow industrial. Are you here for a charity, or merely keep your family going and keep fighting with the banker, or scrap your pockets to buy a new lathe? Or are you ready to take profit not only for your blue-collar time spent, but also for lore and invention, which has a price, too, and will feed further research and innovation. A music CD does not cost just $2 of plastic and paper, just as software doesn’t. Just as a photog does not ask time-based wages for his work, because 1/1000 th second shots would almost equal lawyers’ hourly wages

Anyway, let the craftsman’s choices of 1) let his prices follow demand 2) grow in size 3) grow in back-order delays
be his own choice, like selling direct or through retailers.
Or, if he had but one American customer, putting a lot of money in a liability insurance, just in quite probable case ten years from now a customer sues him for choking on a high F, getting deaf or losing the divorce cause of a 3rd octave

or getting poisoned by sucking nickel in German silver, etc.

Now, thanks of course to all of them early customers who trusted you when you had a small hearsay reputation. They got their profit too, getting your production at close-to-cost price. They had gambling flair, just like early buyers of unknown painters.

Some already made an actual profit on craftsmen whistles by reselling directly, or E-bay auction. Good for them! So, if someone really makes part of his business out of it, i.e. putting cash in advance for half a dozen of the same model, it seems hard to forbid, especially on moral bases. The final customer who paid double is not ripped off : he paid what money he decided he could spend on his hobby, and thought was a correct deal for the money + service. Note there was service to the maker too : regular income, cash advance and... taking care of the customers. Some can be such a pain

that some artists craftsmen do prefer not to handle the sales pitch and pep talk and all the PR stuff when they don’t like it or if it’s not their primary talent.

B.t.w. we had that interesting thread on recorder vs. whistle prices... Part of the differential is here : we buy most our instruments direct, but just try and do it from Moeck or Mollenhauer, not to mention Yamaha !

With the development of Internet direct sales, many businesses will have to choose between direct or indirect sales. Many will start direct, but end up through retailers' network. See for instance what happens with successful sharewares : they end up as regular software corporations. Of course, some vice-versa situations are bound to happen too.

I just think we should be pleased that Mr Sindt accepts to deal direct. This does not make necessarily a sucker from someone who enters a shop and think his craft is still a good deal at double the price.

I knew one country where everything had a fixed rock-bottom price calculated by accountants, even for hand-made musical instruments. Worksmanship was... let’s kindly say adequate, price was quite low. And waiting list years. Understandably, it challenged US for firm belief in its own moral prevalence. It was called Soviet Union.

Now, when I express this opinion, this doesn’t mean I disapprove of posting critics on one given dealer.

Consider I just like playing devil’s advocate.

Wombat · Post by **Wombat** » Mon Nov 18, 2002 6:31 pm

On 2002-11-18 19:00, Zubivka wrote:

Consider I just like playing devil’s advocate.

Well this perspective is very helpful. I'd like to see a saintly reply. Someone needed to say this. Why were people picking on Lark in the Morning when absolutely nobody was condemning individuals who sell secondhand and mark up for precisely the same reason? (That's not just a rhetorical question, I'd like to know—can anyone tell me?)

It's really helpful (to me) when those who are in the business side of things explain how that stuff works. I got caught out recently bagging book publishers when I really didn't know all that much about their costs or margins and (this is the schizoid bit) when I really didn't think that many were unprincipled. I think that maybe a lot of us operate with double standards here without even realising it. We know of course that some business practices are unprincipled—reissue CDs at full price when the artist gets no royalties and the recording costs have already been recovered many times over for example.

The more those in our community who make a living making and selling books, CDs, instruments and other works of art and scholarship educate us about how the economics of their side of the business works, the better informed we'll all be.

[ This Message was edited by: Wombat on 2002-11-18 19:32 ]

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Mon Nov 18, 2002 10:28 pm

I just visited two Lark shops, one
in Mendocino,one in Seattle.
It's an odd combination of folk
music instruments which are pretty
much the same in each shop (with
some variation) and a sort of
heavy duty retail idea underlying it.
Usually you feel that people
with shops full of some pretty
arcane folk instruments love
folk instruments; but Lark seems
much more in love with selling
things that are folk instruments.
I don't know if it's good or
bad, but it's strange. I couldn't
really check prices--some seemed
pretty good to me. But the
ambience is RETAIL
pretending to be something else.

There were some very lovely
flutes, in fact, some mopane
Casey Burns flutes--which I
played and thought quite good
(I know this may be controversial),
lots of shaws, Chieftains, etc.
I'd go there in person, but I
don't think I would shop by
mail.

Jens_Hoppe · Post by **Jens_Hoppe** » Tue Nov 19, 2002 3:44 am

Ya know, it's strange... the C natural problem only exists on his D whistles. I have a complete set and none of the others seem to be effected.

He probably knows that if he fixed the Cnat issue on his D whistles, so many people would order one, he'd be swamped with new orders!

bodhrans · Post by **bodhrans** » Tue Nov 19, 2002 4:19 am

The more those in our community who make a living making and selling books, CDs, instruments and other works of art and scholarship educate us about how the economics of their side of the business works, the better informed we'll all be.

I'll respond to that Wombat, I hope I'm not sticking my neck out. I'm an instrument maker and have the added bonus of having done a small business course, so I'll respond in appropriate terms. The first thing to consider is cost of production, that includes material cost, cost of labour for production and recovery of some overhead costs such as rent, phone, power and so on, and if you are lucky, you can add a small profit. Now, I regard that as my wholesale price, if someone wants to buy numbers of my instruments and sell them for me, they can have them at that price, and the mark-up they apply is usually 100% ie. they sell it for twice the price they bought it for.
The other more usual event is that I have to sell my instruments myself, one way or another, and there are various ways of doing that, but all of them involve considerable time and money. I need to increase my price to cover those extra costs and quite honestly, increasing the cost to the same price as the retailer is now selling for, works out at pretty close to being what is required. The end result is that both the maker and the retailer end up selling at the same price. I think that is fair, to the retailer, to the maker and also to the customer, who should be paying a price from either sales outlet which reflects the cost structures involved in making and selling instruments.

Wandering_Whistler · Post by **Wandering_Whistler** » Tue Nov 19, 2002 8:12 am

On 2002-11-18 19:31, Wombat wrote:

Well this perspective is very helpful. I'd like to see a saintly reply. Someone needed to say this. Why were people picking on Lark in the Morning when absolutely nobody was condemning individuals who sell secondhand and mark up for precisely the same reason? (That's not just a rhetorical question, I'd like to know—can anyone tell me?)

I think it's an excellent question. There's nothing wrong with buying something, marking it up, and selling it. It's called "capitalism", and economies are built upon that very idea unless you live in a communist country.

Is it worth $80 to save a 8-month wait? Some people might think so, and it seems Lark is banking on it. It seems a smart move for them, as they can buy several, and then have them in stock for those individuals who have more money than patience. If they don't sell at that price, they're free to change the price later to reflect the demand in the marketplace. I don't think they're gouging. They're simply looking for what the market will bear. (Supply? Demand? Do I smell some economics happening here?).

Don't think a Sindt is worth $165? Don't buy one from Lark. Put yourself on the 8-month waiting list, and congratulate yourself on saving yourself some cash (then again, I personally don't think they're worth $80 due to the C-Natural issue). I'm not gonna buy a $14.00 Generation whistle from Shannaquay, either. While these prices may seem high to some (or even many) people, there's nothing inherently wrong with setting a price that is supported by the market.

I've been in the software business, and done some publishing...and a 100% markup is not uncommon in both of those markets (to add to the people who've discussed their experience with markups). In the furniture business the markup can be as high as 300%! Lark in the Morning has salespeople, real estate, utilities, taxes, and other overhead that they have to cover through the difference between their purchase price, and their sale price.

But maybe I'm just wrong on this issue..Perhaps some right-minded individual would be willing to fund a whistle clearing house. They could buy several whistles of each brand (or maybe just the brands with long waits), in several keys. They could hold onto these whistles for an indeterminate amount of time, and then sell them to C&Fers at cost whenever we got around to buying them. Chris, Az...ya think one of you might be willin? I'd like to pre-order an O'Riordan or a Copeland if so.

Greg

[ This Message was edited by: Wandering_Whistler on 2002-11-19 09:14 ]

Azalin · Post by **Azalin** » Tue Nov 19, 2002 9:31 am

Well, most of the last few posts make sens to me, but I'm still arguing about the fact that Sindt, and other makers, have a waiting list, so it's not as if they needed the shops to sell more whistles. *THIS* is the big difference between what we're talking about and the capitalism-based marketplace. Starting from there, I don't see how selling whistles, which have waiting lists, at twice the price can be justified. Well, it's not in my mind, but we've all different perspective of things and that's what makes it fun.

Let's be realistic. Let's say that three years ago I bought 10 Olwell's, and sold them for twice the price last year. Two years ago I again bought 10, and again sold them for twice the price. You can be sure that if Olwell learns about this, he won't be happy. Maybe I'm wrong, but I wouldnt be. His buisness wasnt meant to be used like that, and even though you could argue that we live in a capitalist world, I don't think Olwell would sell me flutes anymore if he'd learned about all this.

Wandering_Whistler · Post by **Wandering_Whistler** » Tue Nov 19, 2002 9:57 am

On 2002-11-19 10:31, Azalin wrote:
Let's be realistic. Let's say that three years ago I bought 10 Olwell's, and sold them for twice the price last year. Two years ago I again bought 10, and again sold them for twice the price. You can be sure that if Olwell learns about this, he won't be happy. Maybe I'm wrong, but I wouldnt be. His buisness wasnt meant to be used like that, and even though you could argue that we live in a capitalist world, I don't think Olwell would sell me flutes anymore if he'd learned about all this.

Well, I do see what you're saying, Az. We just have different perspectives, is all. Did you know that in Mexico (and in other places) you can pay someone to <a href="http://www.ravenchronicles.org/raven/rv ... .htm">wait in line</a> for you? I think I remember even a web service where you could hire someone over the internet to do your waiting for you.

To me, that's all Lark is doing..waiting in line on a speculative basis, and then re-selling the instruments. These instruments are generally gonna go to folks who are impulse-buyers, and who don't like to wait--I count myself in that category. A lot of folks like that will skip a wait on a Sindt to get a whistle now, even if the brand they end up getting is not their first choice. The only time I've been on an extremely long waiting list (for a sterling Copeland D), I ended up having to drop off of it the month my whistle was supposed to be made because of job fluctuations, and that just sucked.

Personally, if I was a maker, I wouldn't care if someone had a business of re-selling my whistles at a profit to folks who couldn't wait, so long as it didn't strongly affect my ability to get whistles in regular folks hands, and everyone had to wait like everyone else. In this specific case, after all, we're talking about 6 whistles here, not 600. I'm pretty sure those 6 didn't push John months behind on his production list.

Let me ask you to look at things this way: Would it be as bad if John had sold his whistles to Lark for $40, and they were selling them for John's list price? Either way, Lark has a mark-up, but in the latter case (which is a more traditional wholesaler situation), John would be out some $240. How about Burke whistles? I'm sure that Mike Burke sells them to Song of the Sea for far less than than he'd sell one to you. When he gets behind (as he sometimes does), is it still right for Song of the Sea to make a profit because they have some in stock? The same might be asked of HMT and Hobgoblin (both of which carry Thin Weasels, I do believe). When Glen Schultz was sick a while back, should these stores have stopped shipping any of their in-stock whistles during the time Glen wasn't making them?

Of course, our differing views of things could have a lot to do with where we live. I did grow up in the US--an intensely capitalistic society. I understand that Canada and other places are less so, and it is sometimes nice to see folks who know that money isn't everything.

Wombat · Post by **Wombat** » Tue Nov 19, 2002 10:26 am

I'm really glad you guys have taken up my question. This sort of issue keeps coming up but there hasn't been much discussion of the principles involved; moral principles and business principles. (There's been a tendency to get stuck on (and into) personalities and companies rather than to thrash out the principles involved.)

My background and outlook isn't intensely capitalistic but, as a record collector, I'm well aware of the futility of railing against market forces. There's a standing joke in that game to the effect that nobody ever believes a record is worth what the price guides say it is worth when they're looking to buy, but if they ever want to sell a record it is always worth at least what the guides recommend. That inclines me (slightly) to Wandering_Whistler's view which is, I take it, that it's OK for both individuals and companies to mark up if the market can bear it. Sooner or later, an old whistle becomes a collector's item and you would expect it to be pricey if it is rare and sought after. Why is later OK but sooner not OK?

Azalin, I suppose you must be opposed to individuals marking up in this way or do you see a difference between an individual marking up and a company doing so?

Bodhrans, thanks for the details which we all need to know. I'm not sure though what you think about the case under discussion. Should John Sindt be selling cheaper wholesale (if he wants to sell wholesale)? Are Lark justified in pricing the way they have? One factor might well be this. I take it that one reason that makers sell more cheaply to retailers is that retailers do the marketing for them. But I suspect that John doesn't have to do much in the way of marketing at all—people come to him. That's why his waiting list is so long. I know several high-end makers of various instruments actively discouraging people from ordering. People like this have no reason at all to sell more cheaply to retailers.

Azalin · Post by **Azalin** » Tue Nov 19, 2002 10:31 am

Wanderer,

I understand your point of view, yet all of the whistle makers you used as an example don't have much of a waiting list, and thus benefit from selling in shops. I don't think that Burke has a one year waiting list, and making a few batch of whistles for different shops I think is very good for his buisness. Now, I don't remember seeing many Copelands in shops. Do you remember when Hardy told Goldie to go back in his workshop and work on his backlog? Well, the thing is, Goldie *has* a backlog, but Phil doesnt have much of a backlog and thus benefits from selling his whistles to shops.

I remember that I've bought my first whistle at Song of Sea, which had a very good customer service by the way, and it was an Overton Low D. I'm still puzzled as to why such whistles were available from the shop, but at least they werent selling them at twice the price. They could have, but I'm not sure that Goldie/Overton would have been happy with such a thing.

Anyway, I would like it if any whistle maker with a backlog could tell us his/her view about this.

Bottom line, if someone just discovered that he absolutely wanted a Sindt, and that he was happy to pay 160$ and have it *now*, I don't see much wrong about this, since as you were saying, Lark seems to have only a few Sindt anyway. If they had 100 in stock, that would be another story.

Azalin · Post by **Azalin** » Tue Nov 19, 2002 10:34 am

Wombat,

To answer your question, I don't see anything wrong with an indivudual doing this *if* the maker knows about it. I dare anyone to start doing that and tell the maker "well, I need four of your flutes as I intend on selling them twice the price in two years". If the maker agrees with this, then I don't see anything wrong with the individual, and I would then focus my attention on the maker

Wombat · Post by **Wombat** » Tue Nov 19, 2002 10:38 am

Nice one Az. [A nudge is as good as a wink to someone who can't handle smilies.]