Am I a sinner in your eyes?

[The_Celtic_Bard]

Anniemcu, don't ye worry I shant play the r...word in the viewing of any that expect and ITM ScTM WTM only baroque and ren.

I prefer the whistle any way the r...word has its time and place, but the Whistle is for ever

[RonKiley]

I started on the whistle and then bought a recorder after hearing L'Ensemble Cercamon. There are many here who play both whistle and recorder. It is no different from playing whistle and guitar or any other instrument. Just have fun and enjoy yourself.

Ron

[Whistling Archer]

Play everything!! I go in circles. I play guitar, mando, dulcimer uke, different types of flutes and whistles. I will be totally hooked on one for a while , then burn out play another , then again ,,etc.. ,, but always come back to all of them. Just cause I enjoy it! Luckily whistles are a lot cheaper than guitars. I once paid 1800.oo gfor a Martin. Sold it later. I think ,hope Im getting smarter .. I kept my 300.oo dollar guitar.

Thoreau said something like...
The value of things is only equal to the amount of enjoyment you can get from them
not exact quote I just wrote from my memory

[MTGuru]

I love hearing the recorder in its place-playing Baroque music, but I loath hearing it used in Irish music. Now, it's not necessarily the instrument itself, but the playing style that sounds out-of-place. I've yet to hear anyone play Irish music on recorder with anything resembling an Irish style- the flow, the cuts and pats, the breathing, etc. Everyone I've heard play Irish music on recorder does the toot-toot-toot tongue-every-note style.
An analogy might exist with the Boehm flute- I've heard very traditional-sounding players play great Irish music on it.

Richard, I'll pull out my recorder at the LB session sometime and try to persuade you otherwise. As you say, the problem is mostly the player, although to a degree it *is* the instrument, too.

IMO, the single biggest problem in transferring whistle/flute technique to recorder is the register break between d-e instead of c-d, with all sorts of negative consequences for fingering and phrasing. It's possible to attempt d = x|xxx xxxo, but on most recorders it's far too sharp to be usable. Shading it down with the RH pinky is iffy on a Baroque recorder because of the split hole on B4. The trill fingering o|xxx xxxx works, but is extremely awkward.

My solution is twofold. First, my (soprano) recorder of choice is a Mollenhauer Dream Flute (Adri's Traumflöte). As a hybrid Renaissance-type wide-bore instrument, it has a much more open sound than a typical reedy, constricted Baroque instrument, approaching the timbre of a rather pure whistle. And at $30 US for the plastic model, it's one of the great recorder bargains of all time.

Second, this recorder is available with the option of single simple holes for B3 and B4. This makes it possible to precisely shade B4 to produce a perfectly in-tune d with the fingering @|xxx xxx@ (@ = shading). With a bit of practice moving the B3 and B4 fingers as a unit, you have your c-d register break again, with all the positive benefits. Of course, the usual o|oxo oooo is still available with some advantages - such as clean c and c# rolls. The other fingering adjustments such as F#/f# and c-nat are minor.

With this setup, there's no reason not to execute nearly the full range of whistle ornamentation and technique on the recorder, though I do still consider this more of a parlor trick. Maybe I'll get ambitious and put up a sample sound clip sometime.

I think it's interesting to speculate on what might have happened in ITM in the aftermath of the Dolmetsch recorder revival if the whistle had not already filled that niche. Historically, the adoption of new instruments into ITM has been a classic example of "gesunkenes Kulturgut", and recorder would have been a good candidate. But that's a topic for another thread.

[Tim2723]

A whistle player is walking along a bridge late at night. Half way across he sees a despondent man standing on the edge with a rope around his neck, a heavy stone tied to it.

"What's the trouble?" he says to the poor soul.

"I can't go on anymore, I've lost all my faith in life!"

"Surely there must be something to live for! We have to have something in common. I'll be your friend! Are you a Christian?

"Yes, I'm a Christian."

"Me too! Are you a family man?"

"Yes, I have two beautiful children and a loving wife."

"Me too! Do you have any hobbies?"

"Yes, I love to play music."

"Me too! Do you play the tin whistle?"

"No, but I play the recorder."

The man yells "Die heretic!!" and throws him off the bridge.

[Bothrops]

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!

[ofloyd]

I love hearing the recorder in its place-playing Baroque music, but I loath hearing it used in Irish music. Now, it's not necessarily the instrument itself, but the playing style that sounds out-of-place. I've yet to hear anyone play Irish music on recorder with anything resembling an Irish style- the flow, the cuts and pats, the breathing, etc. Everyone I've heard play Irish music on recorder does the toot-toot-toot tongue-every-note style.
An analogy might exist with the Boehm flute- I've heard very traditional-sounding players play great Irish music on it.

Have you heard the Mollenhauer Dream recorders? They can have a pretty convincing irish sound to them. I have three of them and I have played some ITM with the ITM ornamentation. I was playing a slower air once and the wife came from the other room to see what whistle I was playing on because she said it sounded nice. She was surprised to see it was the recorder . . .

[pancelticpiper]

Guru, I think you've identified exactly one of the things that sounds non-Irish when people play Irish music on the recorder, the octave breaks. On whistle and flute these breaks are done legato and often have a bit of a honk (especially in the "rocking phrase"). On the recorder, with the players I've heard, they are doing this thumb-pinching thing combined with tonguing which makes the octave jumps sound laboured and prissy. Once again, the "flow" and phrasing and "pushing" are all absent. Also, just the fact that, with their choice of fingering, the recorder player is making a clear-cut choice between which octave a note sounds in itself makes the playing sound non-Irish. On the flute and low whistle in particular just which octave a note is in is often a vague thing and often you're honking out notes in between the octaves. Example: The Morning Dew:
B short roll+E+B+F#+B+E+B (the "rocking" phrase)
perhaps the E, F#, E all pop out in the 2nd register, or perhaps one or more of them are honking notes in between the registers, or perhaps one or more of them happen in the low register. It will be different every time this phrase occurs in the tune. This serendipity and/or vagueness is a large part of what makes the music sound Irish, and is lost on the recorder.

[The_Celtic_Bard]

It is surprising, where are all the haters of the r...word (RECORDER).

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Target: The_Celtic_Bard -Acquired,

[Bothrops]

It is surprising, where are all the haters of the r...word (RECORDER).

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Target: The_Celtic_Bard -Acquired,

Arrrrghhhhhhhh!!!!! Noooooooo!!!!!!!!! You said the magic word!!!!!
LOL!!!!!!!!!!

[MTGuru]

This serendipity and/or vagueness is a large part of what makes the music sound Irish, and is lost on the recorder.

Well, most whistles don't do that ambiguous octave thing as well as flute either, but your points are very well taken. The thumb venting on recorder really changes the flow between registers. The common (3Bc#d figure to cross registers sounds completely wrong on recorder with standard fingering, because you're not actually crossing registers. Lots of things.

I think the recorder is like other non-canonical ITM instruments that *can* work if you're willing to adjust your listening and playing expectations. Silver Boehm flute, piano accordion, English concertina, djembe etc. will never sound exactly like their canonical counterparts. But in the right hands, they've all been used effectively and musically by players who understand the tradition and are able to finesse the limitations.

[talasiga]

........
I think the recorder is like other non-canonical ITM instruments that *can* work if you're willing to adjust your listening and playing expectations. Silver Boehm flute, piano accordion, English concertina, djembe etc.
......

guitar

[Mitch]

Mentioning the R word in the C&F whistle forum is a bit like pulling-out a ham sandwitch in a synagogue. Perhaps there should be a new forum for these heretics?

If you pull out a r*c*rd*r at an ITM session, you'd better be able to play it - I've seen both cases, the man who could play was complimented, the one who couldn't found himself alone in the pub.

Of course, the R word IS always good for stiring the pot and getting a larf - somewhat akin to mentioniong Overton and Chieftain in the same sentence

Now about kazoos ...

[Adrian]

I love hearing the recorder in its place-playing Baroque music, but I loath hearing it used in Irish music. Now, it's not necessarily the instrument itself, but the playing style that sounds out-of-place. I've yet to hear anyone play Irish music on recorder with anything resembling an Irish style- the flow, the cuts and pats, the breathing, etc. Everyone I've heard play Irish music on recorder does the toot-toot-toot tongue-every-note style.

One of the many good examples IMO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X24AsUZs8_s

[talasiga]

.....a ham sandwitch in a synagogue
......

Noticing your "sandwitch" a "sinnergogue" wouldn't have surprised me.
For the r*c**d.