Boxwood Rudall on ebay

skh · Post by **skh** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:04 am

sbfluter wrote:Somebody enlighten me. Why so much oohing and ahhing over this flute?

Because this is one of the instruments with which it all started -- they were built in England for classical music, then went out of fashion when new stylish Boehm flutes invaded. Some made their way to second hand trade and ultimately to Ireland and traditional music was played on them. Keys got removed, unused holes filled, and of course over the years many of these flutes got lost or cracked. At some point people started to make new flutes after these models, to satisfy a slowly increasing demand. Today we have many makers, and there are far more modern flutes played than antique originals, but these are still, more or less closely, modeled after the out-fashioned English originals bearing the now famous names of Rudall, Rose, Prowse, Hawkes et. al. (see http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/movers.htm for more).

A few handful (how many exactly I can't guess) of antiques built in that manner -- for a german flute of the same time period is far less interesting, and not able to produce that exact tone -- still exist. Fewer are in good enough condition, and playable. And then even fewer were made from boxwood. Flute history staring at us from an ebay page, a bit like time travel even because it looks so -- perfect.

sighs

But I don't have the money, so someone else has to take care of it.

peace,
Sonja

jemtheflute · Post by **jemtheflute** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:11 am

Probably plenty of stuff searchable on line about R&R, and of course David is the expert. Briefly, they were the premier flute making firm in C19th London, acknowledged as such contemporaneously, and their reputation has been borne out in the opinions of subsequent generations. There were other great makers in London at the time, and excellent but stylistically different makers in Germany, Austria-Hungary and France especially, as well as the USA, but it was the English style flute that most appealed to the ITM players of the late C20th expansion of ITM and R&R were the doyens of that style.

R&R, later Rudall & Carte, made flutes in many different designs (they were the first British manufacturers of Boehm's designs) and moved with the times/market - see Terry's site, read Rockstro...., but their main period of 8-key simple-system production from the 1820s to 60s saw them produce about 7000 flutes that were amongst the best ever made. Other makers made equally good flutes, but not so consistently. Their instruments are particularly well made and especially beautiful - again, not uniquely so, but if you get an R&R, you pretty much know what you are getting (allowing for condition, of course). Have a look at David's R&R Catalogue site and drool. If you ever get a chance to play one, enjoy! Similarly for an original Pratten, though there were less of those made and by several different makers (Hudson, Boosey), and not always to quite such high standards of production as R&R maintained.

There are quite a lot of R&Rs about, though probably as many again are lost permanently or hiding somewhere - again, see David's catalogue. They are rare enough and the marque has sufficient cachet to put a premium on their price, and boxwood ones are a relatively small part of their output as cocuswood was the timber of preference in their main period of production. Box may also have less good survival characteristics than tropical hardwoods. However, as Aebi fans (for example) will tell you, box has its own special tone and feel, and the extra rarity of R&Rs (especially in playing condition) in box is an element of the wow factor.

sbfluter · Post by **sbfluter** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:38 am

Yes, but it seems there have been other boxwood rudalls for sale or for discussion but they have not generated 3 pages of lust. Or maybe there haven't been others and I'm imagining things. I was wondering what it was about this particular one. Anyway, it doesn't really matter. I'm not enough of a musician to lust after it myself. I'm the type to prefer 2-buck chuck to the expensive stuff (that's a local wine $2 a bottle).

s1m0n · Post by **s1m0n** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:52 am

sbfluter wrote:Yes, but it seems there have been other boxwood rudalls for sale or for discussion...

The term "Rudall" also gets used to describe contemporary flutes made "in the Rudall style", at least in terms of bore profile and hole size.

There's a world of difference between a no-key "rudall" made by Ralph Sweet in 1997 and a genuine Rudall and Rose 8 key flute made in 1840.

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:03 pm

Anybody who wants to hear what these can do,
you might check Chris Norman's CD, The Man
With the Wooden Flute.

s1m0n · Post by **s1m0n** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:24 pm

jim stone wrote:Anybody who wants to hear what these can do,
you might check Chris Norman's CD, The Man
With the Wooden Flute.

If it makes you sound like Chris Norman, no wonder the bidding is heated!

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:27 pm

REally.

Chris semi-retired his boxwood rudall and had a copy
made by rod cameron. I think there are pictures
of it somewhere. The latter flute is probably capable
of what the original does--I heard it in fact.
It's incredible, but I suppose what I really
was hearing was Chris.

Cameron's flute costs about 5000, I think.
Some of our members have them.

I think these flutes have a sweet second octave
and a focused sound. I had a Grinter
that was a copy, but I found I couldn't make
it sound like an Irish flute--that is, I thought
I should be playing classical on it.

But obviously that's me.

Hoovorff · Post by **Hoovorff** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 7:38 am

$5100 and a UK buyer. The flute's going home, I guess. Well, I hope they will play it. Congratulations to the winner. (Sob sob sob

)

jemtheflute · Post by **jemtheflute** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:58 am

Dunno if it'll get played or dealt onwards. Have a look at the buyer's purchasing record - he seems to get through quite a few flutes, and finance not an issue - but he sure isn't just buying collectors'/museum pieces. I wonder who it is? Decent result for David, though.

RudallRose · Post by **RudallRose** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:01 am

the buyer is a known player in the UK world.
I'll allow him to identify himself (if he's a member here, that is)....
but the price is right where a boxwood rudall of this condition ought to be.

I play one a lot (#1900) and it cost me about that. I've sold them for slightly more, but only unique ones that have few brothers/sisters still around.

this one is unique in that it is the first listed in the catalogue whose pewter foot plugs sit into silver tubes (a patented process by Potter). My 1900 is the same way, but this is the first one listed of the known-existing flutes.

I liked this one because of the medium tone holes. Very easy to manipulate the tone and as buttery as you'd expect a boxwood Rudall to sound.

I'm always amused at how boxwood Rudalls -- the cheapest of the available flutes of RR when they were made -- are now among the most expensive since so few of them were made.

We can probably thank Chris Norman for that. His is a dandy indeed.

I've have 4 or 5 boxwood RR originals.....and played twice that number....and most all of them played the same: beautifully.

It's a different animal than cocus. Very distinct sound and even more distinct feedback. when I play mine I have to remember that it's not as piercing as cocus so the process is quite different. But once it's going, it's very very nice.

Anyway.....I don't have any others to sell yet (though for any period players out there I have an 8key "Camp from Rudall & Rose" flute that can use a home.....$2,500....cheap!.....but the scaling is certainly of the 1830 variety. Bet some maker can bring it up to code, as it were).

dm

daiv · Post by **daiv** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 4:45 pm

Hoovorff wrote:$5100 and a UK buyer. The flute's going home, I guess. Well, I hope they will play it. Congratulations to the winner. (Sob sob sob )

sob indeed! i went to work this morning with 22 minutes left and it was mine! i got outbid by 100 dollars.

i'm glad to hear it went to a player... i hope he enjoys it! i know i would have.

Jon C. · Post by **Jon C.** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:50 pm

daiv wrote:
Hoovorff wrote:$5100 and a UK buyer. The flute's going home, I guess. Well, I hope they will play it. Congratulations to the winner. (Sob sob sob )
sob indeed! i went to work this morning with 22 minutes left and it was mine! i got outbid by 100 dollars.

i'm glad to hear it went to a player... i hope he enjoys it! i know i would have.

Daiv, you were saved from abject poverty!

daiv · Post by **daiv** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:58 pm

Jon C. wrote:
daiv wrote:
Hoovorff wrote:$5100 and a UK buyer. The flute's going home, I guess. Well, I hope they will play it. Congratulations to the winner. (Sob sob sob )
sob indeed! i went to work this morning with 22 minutes left and it was mine! i got outbid by 100 dollars.

i'm glad to hear it went to a player... i hope he enjoys it! i know i would have.
Daiv, you were saved from abject poverty!

haha, it's nice to know i can eat for the next year or so!

s1m0n · Post by **s1m0n** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:41 pm

Hoovorff wrote:$5100 and a UK buyer. The flute's going home, I guess.

For the sake of curiousity, does anyone know the law/logistics of importing antique ivory to the UK?