Irish Grip

[Irish Marine]

Rob-This is a very interesting thread. It's made me take a look at my own grip. Although I hold the flute differently than you do, it doesn't matter. Each of us has to find out what works for us. I tried to hold as you do but it's uncomfortable to me, just like my method is probably uncomfortable or doesn't work as well for you. You look extremely relaxed, comfortable, and agile with your grip. It obviously works-you played the tune wonderfully. Take care.

[Berti66]

my teacher also plays almost like that.........
nice piece of playing, thanks for sharing

berti

[Hibiki]

*Would surely be killed if people saw the way he holds his primitive home-made PVC and bamboo flutes*

I like a large E hole, so I can get a louder sound, so I've been positioning it lower and playing with my pinky. This also allows my... *at loss for the correct vocabulary to describe the finger between one's pinky and middle finger* - to hold the flute steady if needed.

I noticed that the "rishibue" ( - as it is called in Japanese. I don't know if there is an English name for it...) uses this design/hold.

For those of you curious, here is a video of someone playing the rishibue http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wKvRVgAv_w

I should probably say that I'm very much a beginner, though. Perhaps I'm building a bad habit, but I find this much more comfortable and technically superior - at least for larger flutes.

[cocusflute]

After more than 45 years at flute playing... the majority of the better flute players I have known are competitive individuals

Thanks for the compliments. Although 45 years of playing classical music might qualify one as an expert in that field, it does not carry over to ITM. When you offer an accomplished player a critique based on classical technique it is likely to fall on deaf ears, as posts subsequent to yours have shown.
With ITM there is no substitution for learning by ear. If you do not learn by ear you are nowhere with regard to this music. You might be playing the same notes and the same tune but it will not be Irish Traditional Music. Your playing will be flavorless and boring.
I paraphrase here, but when a classical player says "A straight wrist is good..." or "you should do this," he/she is ignoring the fact of the music: that for generations flute players have held the flute any which way and have made beautiful music. The same kind of rigidity obtains with regard to "proper technique" as with an uninformed adherence to the printed notes.
From your classical perspective you offered advice which was neither sought after nor needed, to an accomplished player. Your disclaimer that nobody need heed your advice contrasts with your vaunted "45 years of flute playing."
As far as the competitive aspect of fluters is concerned, most accomplished players when they get together know immediately where the other musicians are in their journey down the same road. Some players are more accomplished than others. The competition is friendly. Egos are delicate and this is understood. Unlike classical/commercial players we are not vying for a piece of the financial pie. Most of us are delighted to get together for a pleasant tune and a bit of a chat.

[jemtheflute]

This also allows my... *at loss for the correct vocabulary to describe the finger between one's pinky and middle finger* - to hold the flute steady if needed.

We might refer to the 3rd finger (not counting the thumb) as the "ring finger" since it is the most common one for wearing wedding rings on (L hand in some countries/cultures, R in others). Americans call the 4th finger "pinky", Brits call it the "little finger". 1st finger may be "index" or "forefinger" or even "pointer". You can avoid any confusion by just referring to L1,2,3,4 / R1,2,3,4 and LT or RT for the thumbs.

[sbfluter]

If you do not learn by ear you are nowhere with regard to this music. You might be playing the same notes and the same tune but it will not be Irish Traditional Music. Your playing will be flavorless and boring.

This is not true. You must listen to understand but you can use sheet music to learn the tune.

Sheet music is not so powerful that it prevents you from learning the music. It's simply a means of communication, such as this thread on variation in Irish music which is itself full of written music, and is probably the finest instruction I have ever read toward an understanding of the music.

[jemtheflute]

This is not true. You must listen to understand but you can use sheet music to learn the tune.

Sheet music is not so powerful that it prevents you from learning the music. It's simply a means of communication, such as this thread on variation in Irish music which is itself full of written music, and is probably the finest instruction I have ever read toward an understanding of the music.

Well said, Diane. I would add that, thanks to the efforts of tune collectors and transcribers since the late C18th we have a vast corpus of "traditional" music, Irish and of other nations/cultures, much of which might well not have survived otherwise, let alone been transmitted aurally. I'm sure there are tunes in the big collections like O'Neill's that at some point have not really been played by anyone as part of the active, living repertory, but now and then get dug out and reintroduced. Similarly, tunes newly written "in the tradition" do not always get transmitted to other players solely by direct aural transmission or even via audio recordings. Are we not to be allowed to use resources such as these? I fear the "living tradition" would not last long, let alone grow and thrive if so.

[cocusflute]

I agree that you can use the dots to learn a tune. But if you don't have a grounding in the music then your playing will lack the flavor of ITM. I should have said "If you only use dots...."
When I learn from the dots I try to memorize the tune as quickly as possible so that I can play it with the understanding that I've gained from having been immersed in the music. Many classical players feel that, given their technical expertise, they are able to play ITM just by reading the dots. I don't think that's possible.
I do agree that the dots offer another tool to the player. But I'd also caution against too great a reliance on reading music to learn tunes. Most experienced players would agree with me.
This is an old discussion, isn't it.

[peeplj]

Just an observation:

Good classical musicians know that the music is never just the dots on the page.

I believe good musicians of all kinds know that. The dots on the page often serve as the beginning of music, but they are never more than a crude approximation of what is and always has been an art based on sound, not sight.

To play Bach or Mozart or Beethoven (or blues or jazz, for that matter) correctly requires years of study and immersion in not only the style but also the tunings, the history, the instruments, and the people of that time.

Too many musicians are forced to be a "jack of all trades" and as a consequence far too many people have never been exposed to these musics as they are played by someone who truly understands them.

J.P. Rampal was a flutist who was a true master of the Baroque style, for instance.

He played Bach and got all the notes and rhythms right. I play Bach and I get all the notes and rhythms right.

So how come I don't sound like Rampal when we play the same thing?

I would have to put in the years of study and effort, like he did.

--James

[Nanohedron]

Many classical players feel that, given their technical expertise, they are able to play ITM just by reading the dots.

...or anyone of techinical expertise, classical or otherwise, even if they can play by ear, too. As you say, one has to have a grounding in the music, and that means a truckload of listening and absorbing. Had a guitarist of remarkable ability but no ITM exposure sit in with some guys just to see if there might be a fit - he was self-assured that he could - but he couldn't make a fist of it. Sounded just like what it was: Irish Traditional/Jazz fusion. We genially agreed to go our separate ways.

A local classical violinist comes to mind, too; when she makes the rare appearance to put on her fiddler's hat, there's sharp technique aplenty, but instead of putting her training in the service of the idiom, she puts herself in the service of her technique, so the effect is still classical, and heavily cloying. "Too sexy", as one fellow put it.

Which isn't to say that classical training has to be anathema altogether: there's a really great young fiddler hereabouts whose strong classical grounding stands him in good stead for agility, precision, subtlety, good tone, and general contol, but when he puts his bow to, it's still pure traditional. That's where the ear training, and the ego constructively directed, shows. So it can be done, but sadly I think it's probably not the norm.

[jemtheflute]

I agree that you can use the dots to learn a tune. But if you don't have a grounding in the music then your playing will lack the flavor of ITM. I should have said "If you only use dots...."
When I learn from the dots I try to memorize the tune as quickly as possible so that I can play it with the understanding that I've gained from having been immersed in the music. Many classical players feel that, given their technical expertise, they are able to play ITM just by reading the dots. I don't think that's possible.
I do agree that the dots offer another tool to the player. But I'd also caution against too great a reliance on reading music to learn tunes. Most experienced players would agree with me.
This is an old discussion, isn't it.

OK Cocus, agreed completely this time. And Nano.

[Rob Sharer]

....Well, I DID ask for an argument! Didn't get the one I expected, but we can't be too picky, now.

Thanks to Sean Dowling and Gordon for the lovely compliments. I'm gratified that, grip questions aside, the music seems to have been very well received. And no, James, there isn't anything else of mine on the web, aside from the two clips I recorded at Cocus' house in Clare (extremely fond memories coming back just now of lovely tunes and warm hospitality on a rainy day - the best!). Maybe I'll do something else for the clips thread at some stage. Cheers,

Rob

p.s. On second thought, a careful Google search might turn up a clip or two from my guitar CD, "Vines," which does have a bit of fluthering and whistling on it, though not really the Pure Drop.

[boyd]

Sometimes I think there's a bit too much hot air expelled on forum sites discussing things when there's a simple truth out there... (in this case, its "do whatever works best for you")

However, in the interests of science etc ...here's a fella for whom the "piper's grip" sorta thing doesn't seem to hold him back.

Comments please once anyone can play as well as he can


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1sWQRKUF88


B

[sbfluter]

His flute is backwards. I suggest he turn it the proper way. I also read that real musicians don't need to tap their feet or move around like that. He should sit still.

(I'm kidding doncha know?)

[Jon C.]

His flute is backwards. I suggest he turn it the proper way. I also read that real musicians don't need to tap their feet or move around like that. He should sit still.

(I'm kidding doncha know?)

Your in big trouble now!!