Who taught todays makers

[meemtp]

Not as I can tell! Like-minded in being ok w/ struggling artisans but none of them have the same earning potential..sorry!

[rorybbellows]

Its a great shame that the greatest living pipemaker ,Alain Froment does not seem willing to share any of his knowledge which must be vast and would be extreamly important considering the quality of the sets he makes

.He has turned down many applications to take on an apprentice and I haven,t heard that he has written any articles on pipemaking as other makers have done .


RORY

[Elmek]

the greatest living pipemaker ,Alain Froment

I don't think you can say things like this - plenty of makers turning out very good pipes that are as good if not better eg Geof W or A Rogge or a host of other makers.

[Sam L]

He has turned down many applications to take on an apprentice

That's because having an apprentice is a pain in the arse. Who would like to be slowed down and make less money when you're already making bugger-all? I don't blame him at all, and thinking about it makes me glad for the knowledge I have received with no thought of reward other than trying to spread the know-how around. Thanks helpful pipemakers, especially ones beginning with a P. And D and B too.


Anyone who doesn't like tangents and wry humour stop reading now.


"greatest living pipemaker" - if I were you Alain, I'd make sure my life insurance was up to date, the second greatest pipemaker might be planning to bomp ye off and take their place at the top of the "league table of pipemaking"! What would points be awarded for?

"For late delivery of a flat set, West Bromich Albion have been deducted 2 points"

"The match between Bill H and Seth G has been postponed due to a dog on the pitch. The pools panel (weird english thing to do with competitive sports and betting) has decided on a score draw"

which is incidentally something I used to do as a student in dodgy bits of Manchester. In fact I was on my way home from a famous pipemaker's house with a large bag of weed under the passenger seat of my untaxed, uninsured, un-mot'd car when the little red bint packed up on the hard shoulder of the M62. I had two fellow students in the car, one of whom had the FEAR and one of whom thought by this point that everything was hysterically funny.

All homebrew-tinged rambling aside, please there's enough competitiveness in life as it is. Why not just refer to everyone else as "not the worlds best pipemaker". Anyone remember "second best priest, second best priest, second best priest"?

[Piobairi Uilleann Inis Fa]

Its a great shame that the greatest living pipemaker ,Alain Froment does not seem willing to share any of his knowledge which must be vast and would be extreamly important considering the quality of the sets he makes

.He has turned down many applications to take on an apprentice and I haven,t heard that he has written any articles on pipemaking as other makers have done .


RORY

Putting aside the seperate debate over whom is the greatest living pipemaker, Alain has always stated his willingness to take on an apprentice. However, he insists that any apprentice that he invests in be properly and classicly trained, including studying engineering at university. This last issue has been the primary reason why he is not willing to take on just anybody. I believe that he has been dissatisified in the past with results of apprentices that haven't properly educated themselves in this regard. However, since moving back to France, he has agreed with a family to take on their son as an apprentice and assist in his engineering studies as well. So, it does sound like Alain may have finally found the next generation to replace his own skills. We shall have to judge for our selves in 10 or 15 years or so.

Neil

[billh]

... Alain has always stated his willingness to take on an apprentice. However, he insists that any apprentice that he invests in be properly and classicly trained, including studying engineering at university. This last issue has been the primary reason why he is not willing to take on just anybody. I believe that he has been dissatisified in the past with results of apprentices that haven't properly educated themselves in this regard. ...

No wonder he hasn't had any apprentices. I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone who could shell out for an engineering education and then opt out of the engineering salary (never mind how the loans would be paid off). Perhaps in France the economics of this are different, but I think you're seriously thinning the ranks from a practical point of view.

I actually *do* have an engineering degree - two in fact, B.S.E and M.S. in mechanical engineering and materials science. As it happens this is the first time in my life that I've actually used my engineering education directly - all my other jobs have been in applied physics/scientific computation, or software design. So in that respect Alain is right, pipemaking contains a large measure of engineering.

But I was listening to some webcasts of engineering courses the other day (UC Berkeley webcast site, highly recommended), and I was thinking to myself "this would be f*ck-all use to someone wanting to make pipes", since even the materials science courses nowadays are all about electron quantum states and semiconductors. Maybe I was the last generation of engineers actually expected to be able to use a file!

So I would conclude not that a potential pipemaker should have an engineering degree, but rather that a pipemaker needs to think like an engineer. While an understanding of materials and of physics are both, IMO, important to success, I think that there are other routes to that knowledge. Courses in machining technology would potentially be more useful than a bachelor's in engineering. I think that because apprenticeships are in decline, and the old ways of acquiring knowledge are not so easily open to us, obtaining the info from books makes a lot of sense (provided the book knowledge can be field tested in some way). Some books are more approachable than others - for instance I'd point interested persons to various books on so-called "model engineering" rather than industrial machining techniques, for an approach more suited to a lone craftsman or small workshop. And books on other sorts of instrument making can be helpful when learning how to approach wood - provided one bears in mind the very different way in which wood contributes physically to sound production in woodwinds versus stringed instruments.

Bill

[Piobairi Uilleann Inis Fa]

From Seth's web site:

"While living in Boston I worked at the Von Huene Workshop in Brookline, making baroque and renaissance recorders and flutes. Under the guidance of master instrument maker Friedrich Von Huene I learned all aspects of instrument making, from toolmaking to hand-turning to wood-finishing. After almost four years there, I moved to New York to be with Erika Wood (now my wife and webmaster) and to start my own business making Uilleann Pipes and now Wooden Flutes as well."

More than one way to skin the cat other than apprenticing with an UP maker. But if you aren't with a maker, I would say that you probably should be a pretty decent musician to recognize a "yar" (sailing term) specimen. Seth is a fine player.

[fel bautista]

Incidently, I see that Benedict Koehler is giving a talk on the uilleann pipes on December 3 in Boston. Here's a link:

Wow, but who's this Benedikt fellow?? someone go and make a recording

[Davy Stephenson]

Spot on Billh

Thinking like an enginner is a good description, and having the ability to teach others is most important, my latest student had no qualifications at all, when he first came I could see that his mind was in the trim, he was dedicated to learning, not simply here for making a full collection of differenty things for their own use, which is what some of my former students have expected from me.

I once had a guy who wanted just this, so anyone coming to me with these kinds of expectations, I must tell them that anything they make for themselves, or should I say end up making for them myself, they must make another for me to sell on, just like a couple of top violin schools in the USA do.

Another member once mentioned that an apprentice can only learn from the master, what the master knows, this is true, but if the master knows nothing then he will learn nothing, a collection of different skills are needed, sometimes its best not to know anything and be taught from scratch, ever heard of the saying, a little bit of knowledge can be very dangerous.

As you can see by the pictures of Makoto's work, it is for a first attempt very good indeed, and I will stick out my neck here and say, a lot better than many other makers past and present, and that is no joke, his finished product is much better than I would ever of imagined, already a superb player, I'm absolutely positive this guy will definately go on to be a very good craftman/maker in his own right.

I have had many other students some mature some young, some with a degree in what ever mechanical/enginering background they held, some who have also had many years of playing under their belt, but they just never had what it takes to cut the mustard, even when I was stood by at the ready to share the knowledge, its all and well having all of these qualifications, but its no good whatsoever without a practical nature, this is why I advise that anyone wishing to learn from me, should have or be of a practical nature, if they have got what it takes, I will be able to see this showning by the end of the first week.

I can say that, bar one student and only one customer, have never been a pain in the ass at all, just intereted honest caring types looking for inspiration, one thing I have noticed with meeting many different people in this arena, is that it does attracts some of the strangest of charaters and makers alike.

[fel bautista]

Maybe I was the last generation of engineers actually expected to be able to use a file!...
Bill

Not only do they not know a drill from an end mill, they don't know a spectrum analyzer from a 'scope. We've had several youngsters come in to work, all with wonderful EE degrees, great GPA from well know Universities, but couldn't figure out a probe end from a sharp pointy stick. They did learn in time and are doing wonderful things, but it seems to me that there is a real lack of hands on knowledge. Or, that lab courses ain't what they used to be.

Don't even start me on how to write a proper report.

my $0.02

[rorybbellows]

but if the master knows nothing then he will learn nothing, sometimes its best not to know anything , a little bit of knowledge can be very dangerous.

Well said ,Its very true and alot can be learned from this !!

RORY

[buskerSean]

Cillian O Brien, apprentice of, Brian Howard.

[rorybbellows]

The greatest living pipemaker ,Alain Froment is self taught ,now that is amazing !!!


RORY

[Elmek]

The greatest living pipemaker ,Alain Froment is self taught ,now that is amazing

Rubbish - plenty of other makers are turning out absolutely amazing work that is the equal of his if not even better. Personally I would prefer a set by another maker as those of his I have seen look like they have escaped from a kitchen - stainless steel - yuck

Have had an email from another maker who has given up posting on this forum who mentions that the statement that he does not pass on his knowledge is untrue

It seems he gave 'tuition' to the well known firm of Irish Pipe Makers 'Hevia'.

From what has appeared on the pages of this forum I am not certain if this as a recommendation to go to him for tuition or not

[stew]

This is getting! Very Very interesting, and I was told it was Mr O'brienn, O'dear.

then I wonder who will be the next greatest, "maybe chiff's great piping guru?

all the best.