Flutes in Irish Music - How far back?

[Wormdiet]

FWIW,

There does seem to be a fair amount of crossover between "upper" and "lower" class music in Scotland, at least if the Baltimore Consort recordings are anything to go by. Moreover, a lot of Scottish renaissance music sounds recognizably "STM" -ish, IE what we would call Scottish traditional. Playford was writing about the "Scots Snap" back in the 1600s. Of course, the social setup was different somewhat different from that in Ireland - no occupying foreign power - but I believe that the differences between folk and "art" music can be overemphasized.

Also, the picture that Irish folk music was primarily a solo affair conducted in the privacy of one's own home has always stuck me as very odd. . . . folk music is dance music, and sociologically speaking, dance starts off as a communal activity. To come full circle, the Renaissance in western Europe produced a ton of dance music, not confined to the lower classes. Henry VIII was an avid musician and composed dance tunes himself (Not jigs and reels, but the larger point remains). Breton music seems, to my limited understanding, to preserve links between medieval music and modern "folk" music most clearly.

Carolan is often cited as an example of an exclusive, upper class tradition. However, in Scotland there is a clear link between vocal folk music (proto-Piobroch, actually) and harping. Going further, many harpers went back and forth between Scotland and Ireland in search of employment, again from upper-class landowners.

I guess my overall point is that the distinction between folk and art music is drawn in pastel blur, rather than a sharp line.

[Gordon]

FWIW,

Also, the picture that Irish folk music was primarily a solo affair conducted in the privacy of one's own home has always stuck me as very odd. . . . folk music is dance music, and sociologically speaking, dance starts off as a communal activity. To come full circle, the Renaissance in western Europe produced a ton of dance music, not confined to the lower classes. Henry VIII was an avid musician and composed dance tunes himself (Not jigs and reels, but the larger point remains). Breton music seems, to my limited understanding, to preserve links between medieval music and modern "folk" music most clearly.

Carolan is often cited as an example of an exclusive, upper class tradition. However, in Scotland there is a clear link between vocal folk music (proto-Piobroch, actually) and harping. Going further, many harpers went back and forth between Scotland and Ireland in search of employment, again from upper-class landowners.

I guess my overall point is that the distinction between folk and art music is drawn in pastel blur, rather than a sharp line.

I agree with your first bit -- but I'm not sure how blurry it all was. We really should be talking about how or when courtly music decided it had to be something other than dance music and saga-ballads, rather than the other way around.

While it's impossible to prove what the average peasant did for amusement, precedence says that it was almost certainly communal. As far as I know, whistles and cylindrical flutes of various sorts were always in use (along with goatskin drums) - most of these people built their own tools; why not a fife or whistle? Maybe they didn't start with top-notch orchestral flutes, but surely there were wind instruments, none-the-less.

James' original question was somewhere between when/why wooden flutes became the traditional flute and why did flutes suddenly enter the tradition so widely. The "pawn-shop" theory, the glut of dirt-cheap London instruments, is probably a good bet, but - as we all know - learning to play the flute isn't an overnight thing. Seems to me a fairly large contingent of flute players simply jumped all over these available instruments, and that a wide learning curve was not needed. I agree with James that it seems the tunes were already there, as well; farmers didn't pick up these flutes and learn to play Baroque music, they had a completely different set of techniques, and they played music they already knew.

I think the when of all this - when did all this occur - was over a much longer time period than it seems, looking back. What changed (for us, anyway) was the sudden glut of wooden flutes.

What I want to know is - who the hell brought the accordian? And why?

[peeplj]

I think the when of all this - when did all this occur - was over a much longer time period than it seems, looking back. What changed (for us, anyway) was the sudden glut of wooden flutes.

I think this is a very good point.

The tradition didn't just "appear in place" overnight the first time it got documented. Years and generations go into producing a folk tradition--by the time it gets noticed by anyone outside it, nobody living within it can remember a time it wasn't there.

As for flutes, it's not a big stretch to suppose as previously mentioned in the thread that most folks had made either reed flutes or whistles...shoot, even here in Arkansas, I cut a couple of flutes from bamboo just because I could when I was a kid.

My dad talked about cutting a kind of whistle from the bark of a tree. Unfortunately, I never saw him do this, but from the way he talked about it, it was a pretty common thing when he was growing up.

Back to the Irish adopting the flute, I think this is why so many didn't use the keys, or even disabled or stoppered their holes: they were used to simple wind instruments with diatonic fingerings. It was all they needed, and for the most part all they probably wanted.

So probably picking up flute wasn't too hard for them; compared to some of their homemade instruments, these quality flutes were probably quite easy to pick up and play.

--James

[chas]

Just to throw in a couple of references. The Neal collection (1743?) is the oldest known Irish tune book and features some tunes that are still played, Wild Geese/Gye Fiane comes to mind. One of the Neal brothers was a flute player. Joyce was a tune collector whose book appeared in the first half of the 19th century, and he talks about transcribing tunes from whistlers -- I presume he means people who played whistle, rather than whistling with their mouths.

[jim stone]

When did bagpipes appear in Ireland?
Were they there in the 18th century?
Did poor folks have 'em?

[peeplj]

When did bagpipes appear in Ireland?
Were they there in the 18th century?
Did poor folks have 'em?

Here's wikipedia's take on it:

The Uilleann or union pipes developed around the beginning of the 18th century, the history of which is here depicted in prints of carvings and pictures from contemporary sources. At about the same time the Northumbrian smallpipe was evolving into its modern form, early in the 18th century; a tutor of the 1750s calls this early form of the Uilleann pipes the "Pastoral or New bagpipe." The Pastoral pipes were bellows blown and played in either a seated or standing position. The conical bored chanter was played "open," that is, legato, unlike the Uilleann pipes, which can also be played "closed," that is, staccato. The early Pastoral pipes had two drones, and later examples had one (or rarely, two) regulator(s). More information on the evolution of the pipes will be given below. The Uilleann pipes may have developed with ideas on the instrument being traded back-and-forth between Ireland and Britain, around the 18th and early 19th century.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uilleann_pipes

--James

[Nanohedron]

The oboe or variants of, were popular folk instruments all across europe at that time, it would be a shock to go back in time and find your ITM played on oboes and recorders...

Indeed, there's a tune in the airs section of O'Neill's 1850, no. 570, pg. 100, called The Irish Hautboy (an older term for "oboe" derived from the French hautbois). I leave it to others to guess as to why it would merit the modifier "Irish", and who would be playing what on it.

[Flutered]

[quote="sbfluter"]I think there were always flutes. The Chumash tribe here in my local area made flutes from Elderberry bushes. I believe anywhere there are tubes there will be flutes.quote]

I'd go with this. The question really should be 'when did Europeans first start playing flutes' because if they played 'em one place at an early date, you can be quite sure they were played in Ireland or wherever else in Europe very shortly thereafter.

[pancelticpiper]

I think jigs, sounding fairly similar to the way we play them today, have been around in Ireland for many centuries. I infer this because the traditional dance musics of both Bulgaria and Spain include idioms nearly identical to the Irish jig. In Spain they are called "muniera" and in Bulgaria "pravo". (Strangely, when Bulgarians began writing their traditional music down in the mid-20th century they chose to write pravos in 2/4, with "triplet" marks over the two groups of three eighth-notes, rather than the more logical 6/8.)
Now, Bulgarians and Irish have been fairly isolated from each other since the Indo-European expansion and I attribute similiarites between Bulgarian and "Celtic" culture such as the weaving of tartan-like cloth, the similiarity of many myths, and the similarity of some of the music, to the survival of old I.E. features.

[Gordon]

When did bagpipes appear in Ireland?
Were they there in the 18th century?
Did poor folks have 'em?

Here's wikipedia's take on it:

The Uilleann or union pipes developed around the beginning of the 18th century, the history of which is here depicted in prints of carvings and pictures from contemporary sources. At about the same time the Northumbrian smallpipe was evolving into its modern form, early in the 18th century; a tutor of the 1750s calls this early form of the Uilleann pipes the "Pastoral or New bagpipe." The Pastoral pipes were bellows blown and played in either a seated or standing position. The conical bored chanter was played "open," that is, legato, unlike the Uilleann pipes, which can also be played "closed," that is, staccato. The early Pastoral pipes had two drones, and later examples had one (or rarely, two) regulator(s). More information on the evolution of the pipes will be given below. The Uilleann pipes may have developed with ideas on the instrument being traded back-and-forth between Ireland and Britain, around the 18th and early 19th century.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uilleann_pipes

--James

Not sure about Wikipedia's take on why the Uillean pipes were developed. As I heard it, the English outlawed the war pipes (for obvious reasons, for anyone not themselves) during the 18th c., and so pipes you can play seated evolved. Allows you to drink between tunes, too, which is never a disadvantage.

Back on topic, it seems to me that if pipes of any kind were in use in the 18th c. or earlier, since the fingering is more or less the same as on a flute, the techniques and sounds were there. Earlier comments mentioned fifes, used for military purposes, transitioning to non-military music, but probably too piercing to sit and enjoy, hence the lower-pitched flutes. So, too, the bag pipes; certainly not a court instrument, it evolved fairly early on from an extremely loud marching military instrument to a seated, slightly more palatable, listening, performance instrument.

[jemtheflute]

As I understand it, both Uillean pipes and Northumbrian small pipes and probably the related bellows-blown Border pipes were all, if not directly derived from, at least technologically influenced by the French Baroque Musette de Cour - a bellows blown, played seated instrument with shuttle drones, which was part of the general development of the woodwind in France in the C17th and also part of the French court's obsession with (idealised, sanitised) things pastoral/bucolic/Arcadian (including the Hurdy-Gurdy) that influenced so much of the art of that time and place - visual, musical, architectural and landscape! The Auld Alliance between Scotland and France included significant cultural links, not least in music, and the link between Scotland and the North-Eastern parts of Ireland, not just as occasioned by the Protestant Plantations, also affected bagpipe culture. The banning of the War Pipes in Scotland after the Jacobite rebellions certainly influenced the development of the Border pipes in the C18th as well.

[Craig Stuntz]

The banning of the War Pipes in Scotland after the Jacobite rebellions certainly influenced the development of the Border pipes in the C18th as well.

I've seen a number of claims that the "banning" was a myth, e.g. this review of Traditional Gaelic Bagpiping, 1745-1945

In his pursuit for bringing to light what is known about eighteenth century Highland bagpiping, the author refutes some widely accepted opinions. For one, he demonstrates the myth that pipes and pipers were banned in Scotland by the Disarming Act of 1746 (quoted with amendments in Appendices I and II), following the collapse of the 1745 Jacobite rebellion. Similarly, Gibson convincingly refutes another widespread opinion, namely that Culloden marked a decline in classical bagpiping[...]

In fact, as Gibson demonstrates, many bagpipers studied piping and built their repertoire during the years following Culloden and subsequently served in the Seven Years' War and in the American revolutionary and Indian subcontinental wars. The author admits that the classical form of bagpiping may have lost some of its value as a statement of social status in some parts of Gaelic Scotland, but bagpiping remained widely popular. Traditional dance bagpiping continued at least until the mid-nineteenth century. It was the depopulation of the Highlands in the nineteenth century, not Culloden, that was largely responsible for the decline of traditional bagpiping.

I've never actually seen a citation for the supposed banning other than vague references to penal laws.

-Craig

[jemtheflute]

OK, I stand enlightened! I related a myth! (In which I believed 'cos it was what I'd learnt!!!!!! Ooops!)

So it was a bit like the myth we have in Wales that the English banned folk from speaking Welsh. Actually, they never did - so far as I know no law or even by-law to that effect was ever passed, or even suggested, though conducting business e.g. in the courts etc. in Welsh was probably difficult and frowned upon. What did happen was that (some) Welsh people demanded that their children not speak Welsh or be allowed to do so in school because it was regarded by themselves as inferior and barbaric and a hindrance to education and social advancement! Doubtless the infamous "Welsh Not" - a board engraved with said words to be hung as a symbol of shame around the neck of any child caught speaking Welsh - and other punishments did exist in some schools, but it wasn't a requirement imposed by English overlords - or at least, not Government. Local school boards etc., well, maybe. But the canard that the English banned Welsh in schools in the C19th remains a general belief in Wales. I'm sure that many English people both in and outside Wales indeed thought Welsh was barbaric etc. - some still do! - but there was no systematic campaign to suppress it by English Government. Most English people both then and today were/are hardly aware that Wales or the Welsh language exist, let alone care either way about them. Such cultural oppression as there was was not official, though that doesn't mean it didn't happen, and it was at least partly self-imposed!
I've no axe to grind here - it's just an interesting parallel case.

Back to Highland pipes - the thought had occurred to me that, even if the folk at home were discouraged from "clan" traditions and activities, the British Army never stopped using and encouraging the pipes!

[AaronMalcomb]

Of course, the social setup was different somewhat different [in Scotland] from that in Ireland - no occupying foreign power

The on-again-off-again rule of the English in Scotland may have been more centralized to London since there isn't a sea between the countries but their presence was most certainly evident.

As Craig pointed out there is no direct evidence of bagpipes being banned in Scotland and the instruments role in the Jacobite movement, culminating at Culloden, is also significantly smaller than literature would have you believe. Unfortunately the popular view of Scottish history and culture is still influenced by Sir Walter Scott some 200 years later. Although maybe we should thank Sir Walter Scott that Scottish culture looms in the popular conscience at all.

But back to the topic, I think it's a chicken and egg question that comes down to what is defined as a flute and what is defined as Irish music.

[AaronMalcomb]

Back to Highland pipes - the thought had occurred to me that, even if the folk at home were discouraged from "clan" traditions and activities, the British Army never stopped using and encouraging the pipes!

The British Army never officially employed pipers for many years, I think not until the 19th C. Until then pipers were under the officers' employ. The first case of a regiment actually employing pipers was with the Gordon Highlanders but then the pipers were lumped with the drummers and in that regiment they were traditionally called the Drums & Pipes as opposed to reverse which is how regimental bands are more commonly called.

But the officers employed pipers for recruitment and morale. I'm flashing back to the ridiculous drills demonstrated to recruit the Irish in Barry Lyndon, one of Kubrick's more tedious films.