Finally Circular Breathing on Whistles !!

[Pyroh]

Joe, it´s nice of you to tell Hatao that it´s good to know when to use and when not to use certain tricks - but if you seen him play, you´d know he doesn´t use it all the time, almost opposite I´d say - he just posted here some links when he shows it can be done - and that´s particulary useful I think.

[joe13531]

Joe, it´s nice of you to tell Hatao that it´s good to know when to use and when not to use certain tricks - but if you seen him play, you´d know he doesn´t use it all the time, almost opposite I´d say - he just posted here some links when he shows it can be done - and that´s particulary useful I think.

For sure. He sounds like a good player. He did ask for opinions and I just gave mine. No other judgements were passed on his playing as I was only referring to the circular breathing.

Guiness wrote that the circular breathing did not interfere with the phrasing. I disagree. Music without pause is a disruption. Why? Because music breathes. Violin/string players study wind players and singers to learn how to phrase and "take breaths". They don't need to pause because of the bow, so why would they go to great lengths to learn how to pause? I was once enamored by this circular breathing technique until it hurt my playing. Truthfully, I still use it. The other day I was preparing extremely difficult pages of music which I am performing in a couple weeks that goes by very fast, 16th notes at about 150-160 bpm to the quarter note. Nowhere to run...nowhere to breathe! lol I felt by taking a breath, the line could possibly sound interrupted, as the section is exposed. Point being, I COULD take a breath and make it reasonably unnoticeable. I took into account the role of the music at hand at the moment I decided to circular breathe: yes, it's exposed, no, it's not lyrical and it's just filler notes (sheet of sound), yes, it sounds smoother and playing in rhythm is easier if I don't stop for a breath.

MY OPINON is that knowing how to circular breathe is great and everyone should learn it, just in case you need it in a pinch. My opinion is also that circular breathing in a lyrical piece, slow or fast is useless and tacky. BTW, I tried CB on the whistle yesterday and figured it out after 30 mins or so. It's a lot harder than clarinet!

[Pyroh]

Yeah - I agree that way.

I think that whole tune without breaths is like...don´t know, but it´s missing something, breathing gives cadence to a tune.

In certain places, it can be useful though, when you want to breathe somewhere, but you don´t have the lung capacity, it can be used imo.

[Guinness]

...Guiness wrote that the circular breathing did not interfere with the phrasing. I disagree. Music without pause is a disruption. Why? Because music breathes...

Well you've misquoted me, but more importantly you're missing the point. ITM, notwithstanding wind players and airs, does not "breathe". Show me the pauses in sessions, for example, except to sip a beer.

[joe13531]

...Guiness wrote that the circular breathing did not interfere with the phrasing. I disagree. Music without pause is a disruption. Why? Because music breathes...

Well you've misquoted me, but more importantly you're missing the point. ITM, notwithstanding wind players and airs, does not "breathe". Show me the pauses in sessions, for example, except to sip a beer.

You wrote:

<<Just because there are no pauses for breaths, it does not mean the music lacks phrasing.>>

Semantics aside, I believe you were saying what I referred to. I believe that no pauses in music will result in poor phrasing. From what basis did you form your opinion? My opinion is that by not breathing, or giving illusion of breathing (if indeed one must circular breath) is important in ITM, classical, jazz, folk, rock, etc. What do you mean by "pause"? A literal break in sound? I've heard some amazing music in the tasteful use of silence in my day. I've seen this battle waged for years in alll music genres. Music is music. Good music is good music. Good taste is good taste. Please show me an example in ITM where breathing is NOT important. We are not talking about drones here. The whistle is not a drone. Pipes HAVE drones but the melody should not be played in a drone like fashion. Should it? BTW, I am in no way, shape or form angry or anything. These are (or can be) great musical debates and I enjoy hearing everyone's opinions. I might learn something new! I hope everyone feels the same about this. I've seen closed-mindedness exist in all areas of music...including ITM. It's the human condition I think.

Often in jazz, young, excellent players are referred to as "young lions" It carries a double meaning. This is both a term of respect for an up and comer and also a term for someone who just isn't getting everything yet. Usually a young lion type is amazing technically, they know AND USE all the tricks and gimmicks. The playing is very self centered and is not as tasteful as it should be. With experience, the young lion often realizes that tricks are great, but the search for deeper meaning in what they are playing takes hold. They become mature, relying less on show and tricks, and more on emotion, feeling, and most importantly, musicality. Wow...just like anything in life!

As I said before, IMHO, circular breathing is a cool parlor trick and can be useful on a limited basis. Learn it. BUT...it is a phrase killer and does not belong in playing something lyrical. The didge doesn't count!!!!!!!!!!!! lol

[Wanderer]

I disagree about the phrase-killer.

Because whistle players and flutists generally have to find places to breathe, we hope to create spaces that add to the music rather than detract from it, but those spaces aren't necessary to the music.

I've heard pipes, fiddles, mandolins, and all manner of non-winds play with lilt and good phrasing without any rests and breathing spots. Why can' a whistle do the same? I'm not the first person to ask this.

[anniemcu]

I disagree about the phrase-killer.

Because whistle players and flutists generally have to find places to breathe, we hope to create spaces that add to the music rather than detract from it, but those spaces aren't necessary to the music.

I've heard pipes, fiddles, mandolins, and all manner of non-winds play with lilt and good phrasing without any rests and breathing spots. Why can' a whistle do the same? I'm not the first person to ask this.

What Wanderer said goes for me as well.

When breathing requires removal of a note, or part of a phrase, it could just as easily be considered an interferrence, if you will, to the tune, as all those notes are supposed to be in there. It is no more an abomination for one to use circular breathing and keep the notes than it is to breathe and eliminate one here and there. It in no way turns the tune to trash, as a few have been rude enough to imply. The phrasing isn't set around the breathing, the breathing is governed by the phrasing.

[hatao]

Thanks for comments everybody.

Here is a follower.
Mr.James Conway in Chicago posted a cirular tin whistle
video on youtube.

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=WCeoYTliV5s

I am very sure this technique will be a standard
in 21st century traditional tin whistle players !!!

[hatao]

> Pyroh

Reasonable shakuhachi.
This ABS prastic shakuhachi will be good choice.
They have English order form.

http://www.musicon.co.jp/syakuhati.htm

> Aanvil

Yes,Egnlish is not my first langualge though,I do understand
what everyone writes.and joe's saying at page 2 surely sounded bad...
But this is a really now technique for traditional musicians,and
poeple would be reject kind of new elements.
(In the past,using accordion,drum set,synthesizer,electric violin,
and so on...)
This is a very good discussion which I can learn a lot of ideas.

> Joe

Thanks fer telling your story.
I didn't know that violinists learn how to pause by singers and wind instrumentalists, but I know they (especially classical violinists)
breath deeply before phrases.

My opinion is...

Using CB all the time is a "Phrase killer" I admire.
And especially in slow air playing, we should learn how singers
take a pause,and breath. In reel playing,I am not sure yet.

Let's think this is not a show-trick but just a one of breath techniques.
Of course you can breath anytime you want.

So if you (or music,may be)need to take a pause,you just take a pause,
and if you need to take a breath ,you just take a breath.
You can sepalate breath and pause by this technique.

[Guinness]

I wrote, "Just because there are no pauses for breaths, it does not mean the music lacks phrasing." You wrote, "Guiness wrote that the circular breathing did not interfere with the phrasing." These are not equivalent statements.

Musical phrasing is more than the delineation of a series of notes with two brief periods of silence/rests/pauses/spaces/breaths. Phrasing has many definitions, just wiki. Listen to Hatao's playing of Morrison's. Hear the call and response? That's harmonic phrasing or cadence for ya. No breaths. Phrases can also be suggested with dynamics, rhythm, octave jumps, variations, with or without circular breathing. The use of spaces happens to be the most obvious approach.

You write, "I believe that no pauses in music will result in poor phrasing."

Then am I to understand that you're saying ITM mostly contains poor phrasing?

You state, "Music is music. Good music is good music. Good taste is good taste. " Well, that goes without saying. You probably have a copy of Miles Davis's Kind of Blue. Brilliant use of spaces, especially since it was a paradigm shift from the Bebop era.

You state, "Please show me an example in ITM where breathing is NOT important."

Virtually all "dance" forms of ITM.

"Pipes HAVE drones but the melody should not be played in a drone like fashion...young lions..."

While not mutually exclusive, you are confusing artistic rendition (i.e., robotic playing) with phrasing.

"As I said before, IMHO, circular breathing is a cool parlor trick and can be useful on a limited basis. Learn it. BUT...it is a phrase killer and does not belong in playing something lyrical."

Incorrect, as evidenced by my aforementioned comments. Unjudicious and gratuitous application of any technique is lacking in taste. That much we can agree. Listen to Martin Hayes--perhaps the most lyrical and expressive fiddler in recorded ITM music (not necessarily the most traditional). He generally does not use rests.

Too bad Hatao's tunes were not offered initially in a blind test. Except for the dangling notes, most would have never noticed the circular breathing.

[joe13531]

Hateo, I thought your playing was great BTW. I agee with you, music progresses and I am all for new techniques being brought in to expand on a musical style. It's evolution! Guiness, I still think you aren't hearing what I am saying. I will try to clarify. Pauses are actual breaks in silences OR ending of phrases. Surely a pause can be taken without a breath. How would a conversation between two people sound if NO PAUSES were taken between sentences? Like a run together blob of sound with no definition. Pauses (breaths if you need 'em) create definition, a starting and ending point. Like everything in life, there is a beginning and an end. Good music should reflect this. I think it's dangerous and shortsighted to exclude ITM or any other music and say "well this is how it is here...". Music is music and ITM happens to be tonal and contains melodies. We aren't talking about a pitchless drone or some sort of microtonal experimental music here. Yes, it's great to "keeo going" and not have to breathe. I am NOT referring to background loops, ONLY to lyrical passages. Playing an aire without stopping, just because you can is ridiculous. Breaks are of utmost importance in music. Where does this stem from? Hmmm....singers! MOST instrumental music is an emulation of the human voice. Is it not? The highest compliment I could ever receive is being told my playing was as if sung. Is ITM excluded from this? Circular breathing has been around since the advent of wind blown instruments, so why haven't ITM traditionalists or nearly all of the worlds wind players in all the music forms adopted this technique as standard practice? The proof lies in the music and phrasing. Just listen!

There are instrument jocks on all instruments, including the whistle. By this I mean a player who PLAYS a whistle or anything - and very well indeed - but that's it. Being a musician is far more important, especially in folk music. If this isn't the case, why do the old timers sound so amazing musically? They understand what they are doing and have great musical taste. That's why we admire them. We can argue all day about this but my opining remains .. circular breathing is great to know and can be useful, BUT it is far from necessary in any tonal music, especially lyrical playing. Believe me, if one has the means to NEVER take a breath, one will most likely end up not taking a breath. This is a slippery slope Hateo and truly what will end up killing a phrase. I have personally experienced this AND have seen a few players do the same. My question would be for anyone who has been PERFORMING for at least 10 years using circular breathing. Has anyone here had that experience? Hateo JUST learned it. I started using it many years ago IN PERFORMANCE and have gone through the "wow I don't need to breathe" phase. I have since mostly discarded CB and use it sparingly (very, very rarely) and ONLY in filler passages for technical purposes. In 10 years, I would love to know what Hateo's thoughts are on the matter. Let me know!

My grandfather once told me I was doing something stupid and that one day, I would realize it. At the time I didn't believe him, like nearly any young person with no life experience out there. Sadly, he was right! lol Get the experience , live with the experience, learn from the experience, grow from the experience. .On a lighter note, Hateo has made me learn circular breathing on the whistle. Why....why! Arrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!

[Trixle]

I don't have much to say about circular breathing as a general part of ITM, as i am new to ITM and don't feel qualified to comment on it. I do have a few things to say about music though, and pauses vs. endless streams of music in general.

I'm not sure how many people ever listened to Ywngie Malmsteen, he's a guitar player known for his lightning fast renditions of classical tunes and his ability to cram a jillion notes into one measure. I havent listened to him in years, and was never much a fan, though i do have to admit he was "technically" an amazing guitar player.

Well, Ywngwie used to in many interviews compare himself to Jimi Hendrix, at which point many fans of Jimi Hendrix woulg gag on whatever they were drinking, roll over in their graves if they were dead, and wish Ywngie would get hit by a truck.

Now, Ywngie again could cram a million notes into a single measure and do long lightning fast uninterrupted phrases and would do it so much that it became a staple of his playing and his style of guitar playing. Jimi could also, when he chose to, (Listen to Machine Gun if you disagree) cram a million notes into a single measure and have long uninterrupted phrases and sometimes did, and his ability to do it at will and not do it at will and do so many other things with the guitar has placed him in a category of his own.

Now here's the thing about circular breathing that i gather from this discussion, thinking about it from this perspective.

Would Jimi Hendrix have been Jimi Hendrix had he been technicallyunable to play lightning fast, seemingly endless riffs at will, sometimes making his guitar sound like a laser ray pulsing waves into the universe? Would Jimi Hendrix have been Jimi Hendrix had he only played lightning fast, seemingly endless riffs like Ywngie?

I think the answer to both of these questions is no.

Being able to use circular breathing is similar to that in my understanding, limited though it may be. When you want the music to breathe, have pauses, you should be able to do that. When you want the music to be pauseless, an endless stream of uninterrupted music pulsing into the universe, you should be able to do that as well. Why be less able to do what you want to do on the whistle, or have things that you are unable to do on the whistle just because you are used to having to pause during your playing to breathe? Learning Circular breathing won't stop you from being able to pause, make your music less expressive, or any of that. It'll just enable you to do it when you want to for the effect you want.

[Guinness]

I still think you aren't hearing what I am saying.

Well maybe it's because you're circular breathing.

[Wanderer]

I understand Joe's perspective to be that of a professional clarinet player for the last 10 years or so, but has only been playing the whistle a "few weeks" by admission.

Pauses are actual breaks in silences OR ending of phrases. Surely a pause can be taken without a breath.

From your background, Joe, we may be speaking about different musical theories. In ITM (which is what Hateo is playing here), it's preferred that you don't have your pauses at the end of phrases, as that makes your music repetitive and wooden. Instead, phrases should be defined by variation, style, and lilt. I work on this more and more myself.

Perhaps in classical music, there is a different theory. I can't really speak to that with any knowledge at all.

in 10 years, I would love to know what Hateo's thoughts are on the matter.

Likewise, when you've been playing the whistle for 10 years, you may have a different thought on the matter yourself

[Mack.Hoover]

Dear Hatao,
I'm way too dense to understand much of what folks have offered, but if I were grading all your skills on a curve I for one would be failing and most all of us would fall well below the top.

My only suggestion is that you keep practicing what I see is your best talent. It's your courteous willingness to share your skills and music and graciously accept suggestions.

Thanks for proving CB can be perfected. Thanks for indulging us who can only admire you, us who will find fault, us who will attempt to accomplish a fraction of what you've mastered, and us who are challenged to think we can do so well.

I am an humbled and honored fan of yours!