If you were an employer...

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 2:20 pm

Aanvil wrote:Not to sound harsh but if you are hanging around a lot high school drop outs find a new group of people to be friends with.

Not to sound harsh but this is the kind of thing that makes me want to punch people in the face.

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 2:22 pm

BillChin wrote:My dad had a sixth grade education, my mom never went to school a day in her entire life. I'll take their wisdom over that I see from any number of those with college degrees or even PhDs.

Me too.

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 2:44 pm

Education and wisdom are not plainly related.
If you can do theoretical physics, it doesn't make
you wise.

On the other hand you can do
theoretical physics, which is terrific stuff.

Very few highly educated people seem to
be wise. A lot are elitists, quite a few are
ideologues of one sort or another, and so
cannot count the obvious.

If you look at the political track record of highly
educated people in the last century, especially
from the best schools, they often appear quite mad.

Education is a very good thing; so there are good
things other than wisdom.

BillChin · Post by **BillChin** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 2:56 pm

jim stone wrote:The census data, from 2005, suggests a lot more people are
finishing high school. I haven't found a source for the
40 percent drop out rate from college.

...'

Five minutes later...

from
http://ccsr.uchicago.edu/news_citations ... flame.html
>>
The study also found that about 35 percent of CPS students who make it to a four-year college actually graduate. The national average is 64 percent.
>>

As with all these stats, there are variables as to study size, and who to include and exclude, and how the data is collected. Questionaires tend to have a much higher return rate from those with good news to report, the college grads. Also at that link is the frightening perspective, that 6.5 percent of Chicago high school freshmen will get a college degree by age 25 (one out of sixteen). They don't say what percentage have a prison record by then (the other "university"), but I'd guess it is about double the 6.5% that got a college degree.

Another source:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10053859/
>>
Overall, the federal figures report 57 percent of white students finish their degree, compared with 44 percent of Hispanics and 39 percent of blacks.
>>

As for the dropout rate, keep in mind that a good percentage of those that quit school, later go back to get a GED. These folks are counted as high school grads by the Census Bureau.

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 3:15 pm

Thanks for posting these. I haven't time rt now to read
the second link. The first study, done by the Consortium on Chicago School Research, as reported in a student paper, has little force.
Done by heaven knows whom (with who knows what agenda)
and by heaven knows what means.
Even this very light-weight school paper article points out
that the study is seriously flawed.

You know several of the studies you've cited so far are
quite controversial, the news articles themselves say.
Best to be careful with this stuff.

The student-paper article reports that 64% of those who start college
finish. That's the 'national average.' That means that 36% don't
finish (which is significantly better than 40 %) but there is no citation for the statistic. I wouldn't
be surprised if it was true, but so far there's no
solid reason to think it's accurate.

I'll try to read the other later. Off to the jam session.

Aanvil · Post by **Aanvil** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 5:11 pm

Hehe, Well I should know better than to make sweeping generalizations.

Especially around here.

I should perhaps qualify my statement a little.

Last night my brain was still in "hiring mode".

Please forgive me.

My "everybody" represents more or less todays competition in my particular line of work. Currently this is publishing. The people I need to make books, magazines and digital content happen have a broad range of differing skill sets. They cover multiple disciplines in a number of industries.

I agree this narrows the "everybody" field somewhat, however, I feel there is good cross section being cut into what is considered to be "decent paid modern workforce" jobs.

I don't think Cran was talking about have good future prospects working as a tuna fisherman or lumberjack.

Those are fine jobs if that is what you want to do btw.

So let me say then, in my professional experience, most everyone that comes looking for a job has a HSD and a degree of some sort.

Its gives the appearance of them being "a dime a dozen".

I have nothing personally against anyone that chooses to go a different route.

My grandparents on both sides had no education to speak of. Third to Sixth grade at best.

It didn't stop them from being succesful and good people.

Both my parents had no HSD and raised my sister and I just fine.

They did however both go back to school after we were out if the house.

My father earned an MA in History.

Both became teachers and are very soon to retire.

Aanvil · Post by **Aanvil** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 5:14 pm

Cranberry wrote:
Aanvil wrote:Not to sound harsh but if you are hanging around a lot high school drop outs find a new group of people to be friends with.
Not to sound harsh but this is the kind of thing that makes me want to punch people in the face.

Nice.

Denny · Post by **Denny** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 5:31 pm

Aanvil wrote:
Cranberry wrote:
Aanvil wrote:Not to sound harsh but if you are hanging around a lot high school drop outs find a new group of people to be friends with.
Not to sound harsh but this is the kind of thing that makes me want to punch people in the face.

Nice.

Cran, do you really have the upper body strength to make that viable?

Shouldn't you learn to kick?

Sometimes he's just soooo silly...

Jerry Freeman · Post by **Jerry Freeman** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 7:04 pm

This is an interesting discussion.

I wonder ...

Perhaps this is a time in history when expertise in religious studies might be especially valuable.

Turmoil and misunderstanding among religions seem to be at the center of some of the world's most serious challenges today. In that context, it seems reasonable to imagine that quite an auspicious career might be fashioned by someone looking to apply insights gained from religious studies towards helping address those challenges.

Best wishes,
Jerry

DCrom · Post by **DCrom** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 8:29 pm

I think that the perception of whether degrees are necessary (and, if so, how specific they need to be) is heavily influenced by where we live, and what we do.

I live in the Silicon Valley area and work as an engineer. When I started working here, back in 1980, the ability to program and understand digital electronics was much more important than having a degree - and some of the most creative engineers I worked with back then hadn't finished a 4 year degree (As I didn't, myself, until several years later).

By the early 90's, when hiring we looked for either years of experience or a 4 year degree (though we would often hire people with a 4 year degree in some other technical discipline).

These days, it seems like a BS in the specific technical field needed is the minimum, while a BS + several years of experience or a MS is better. I don't think that the overall quality of the new hires is any better, BTW. But it used to be that people self-selected for the field, and enthusiasm and skill counted most. As the field became a "safe" field of endeavor we got more careerists with little skill or enthusiasm, and we had to set the bar higher to filter them out. These days, without a strong personal recommendation from a trusted colleague a hiring manager will seldom consider anyone without the degree and specific training.

It may not fair to all would-be employees, but at the end of the day a hiring manager cares mostly about rapidly filtering through the chaff to find someone who can do the job - it's better to find someone good *enough* fast than to interview a dozen more and find the *best* employee a month and a half later. Santa Clara county is an area where ~50% of the adults have, at a minimum, a 4-year degree (over 60% in my home zip code). With local demographics, filtering out all applicants without a 4-year degree doesn't greatly reduce the pool of available talent.

Other fields, and other areas of the country, will have different dynamics.

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 8:48 pm

Aanvil wrote:
Cranberry wrote:
Aanvil wrote:Not to sound harsh but if you are hanging around a lot high school drop outs find a new group of people to be friends with.
Not to sound harsh but this is the kind of thing that makes me want to punch people in the face.

Nice.

I am to please.

gonzo914 · Post by **gonzo914** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 9:14 pm

Aanvil wrote:
Cranberry wrote:
Aanvil wrote:Not to sound harsh but if you are hanging around a lot high school drop outs find a new group of people to be friends with.
Not to sound harsh but this is the kind of thing that makes me want to punch people in the face.

Nice.

But then he realizes he is supposed to be a Quaker and stays his hand.

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 9:15 pm

gonzo914 wrote:
Aanvil wrote:
Cranberry wrote: Not to sound harsh but this is the kind of thing that makes me want to punch people in the face.

Nice.
But then he realizes he is supposed to be a Quaker and stays his hand.

(Just in case anybody is wondering, the bit about punching people through the Internet is facetious. I thought it was obvious that you can't punch people through the Internet...)

gonzo914 · Post by **gonzo914** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 9:33 pm

Cranberry wrote:
gonzo914 wrote:
Aanvil wrote:
Nice.
But then he realizes he is supposed to be a Quaker and stays his hand.
(Just in case anybody is wondering, the bit about punching people through the Internet is facetious. I thought it was obvious that you can't punch people through the Internet...)

But still, you had violence in your heart, and Jesus knows.

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 9:36 pm

gonzo914 wrote:
Cranberry wrote:
gonzo914 wrote: But then he realizes he is supposed to be a Quaker and stays his hand.
(Just in case anybody is wondering, the bit about punching people through the Internet is facetious. I thought it was obvious that you can't punch people through the Internet...)
But still, you had violence in your heart, and Jesus knows.

I love it!