do you believe everything is a conspiracy?

[Flyingcursor]

The add at the top of the page says

LOS ALAMOS PHYSICISTS HAVE OPENED A GATEWAY TO HELL

I KNEW it!!!

Tom

What they're not telling you is this Gateway is creating Zombies.

[djm]

mmmmuh ngggggguhhhh mmfff

djm

[falkbeer]

As the saying goes, 'The sleep of reason breeds demons.'

Conversely 'Demonization breeds the sleep of reason.'

Also getting to the truth about what's going on in the world
is labor intensive. You really need a lot of information,
and you often need to know a good of history.
Typically there's no way to grasp the configuration
of the forest if you don't know lots about the trees.
.

It seem that conspiracy theories resembles a religious belief system in many ways.

1. There is some great evil doer or master mind behind everything bad in the world. (Once called Satan but now in the shape of Keyser Söze, The governament, the President, the UN, Dr. Evil)

2. There are good forces too. Which ofcource the beliver of the theory belongs to. (Please feel free to fill in the blanks yourself!)

3. The belief in the theory is dogmatic. It´s more faith than reason. The theory cannot be neither verified nor falsified like any god scientific theory (logic empirism and Karl Popper).

4. Like relious beliefs the conspiracy theory becomes a lifestyle for the believer and helps forming concept of the world and how it works. It explains everything, like any good religious belief does!

5. Even the slightest suggestion of proof is hailed by the belivers like a religious miracle. (Some crackpot has seen aliens at Area 51 - conclusion Aliens rules the world by manipulating George Bush! And yes... Elvis was abducted by aliens).

6. There is a sociological side too. Some people will become leaders of the cult of the Theory and exploit it for their own purpouses. (usually financial and power but pure hate is a common reason too). The followers will get recognintion and "intellectual" fellowship community of believers.

[KatieBell]

I would interpret it differently.

3. The belief in the theory is dogmatic. It´s more faith than reason. The theory cannot be neither verified nor falsified like any god scientific theory (logic empirism and Karl Popper).

I would say that conspiracy theorists rely heavily on reason and eschew what they believe is the lack of reason in others. Using Jim's 9/11 plot, the theorists would say that all of us are taking the government's word on faith and are not applying our reason. Of course, I'd disagree with them. But, still. I think it is an eschewing of any faith on their part that leads them to question everything and only trust their own answers.

Also, I think they believe that the theory could be verified if they had access to the right information. I believe theorists believe there is proof out there and someone has it and is keeping it away from the masses. So I wouldn't say they are outside the realm of scientific speculation (as theology is), but that they believe the evidence needed is not available to them.

4. Like relious beliefs the conspiracy theory becomes a lifestyle for the believer and helps forming concept of the world and how it works. It explains everything, like any good religious belief does!

I think this is one of those cycles that feeds off itself. A skeptical person doesn't trust others' interpretations so he comes up with his own which is based on his view of people and the world. Then he believes his own theory which helps to shape his view of the world, which shapes his future theories. Sort of like a chicken and the egg, thing. But if I had to determine which came first, I'd say his view of the world shaped his conspiracy theory.

5. Even the slightest suggestion of proof is hailed by the belivers like a religious miracle. (Some crackpot has seen aliens at Area 51 - conclusion Aliens rules the world by manipulating George Bush! And yes... Elvis was abducted by aliens).

As I mentioned before, I think this is because they believe there is scientific proof out there which is being kept from them, so the revelation of some previously "hidden" truth proves that it is out there and intensifies their assurance of themselves and their theory. I wouldn't say this is the same as a religious miracle, though it can have the same effects. A person who has faith and believes can be given an assurance of that belief through a miracle much as a person who believes there is evidence out there of aliens can be bolstered by a "sighting."

6. There is a sociological side too. Some people will become leaders of the cult of the Theory and exploit it for their own purpouses. (usually financial and power but pure hate is a common reason too). The followers will get recognintion and "intellectual" fellowship community of believers.

I don't follow this one. Some conspiracy theorists will have a following. Some never will. I think people who really believe in it don't care at all if they have a following as they are acting based on their consciences. I'm not following the connection to religion or the intellectual fellowship part.

[Walden]

Back in 1999, there was a program (it came on both television and radio here) and they'd have someone on every episode promoting some conspiracy theory or other, and usually selling a book or tapes or videos. It seemed to be doing pretty well financially. Last time I remember hearing their program they were organizing their own churches in preparation for y2k. I don't know what became of them. I suppose they fizzled around new year.

[mutepointe]

i started this thread as just entertainment and you folks managed to suck all the fun out of it rather quickly but i do have to thank you all for your rather in-depth study on conspiracies. definitely food for thought.

[The Weekenders]

(sob)...It wasn't....fun????

[Denny]

you folks managed to suck all the fun out of it rather quickly

the black whole of chiffdom

[jim stone]

Orthodox Christianity, especially Roman Catholicism,
has maintained for millenia that there are reasons
sufficiently strong to persuade the rational uncommitted
individual that God exists. These reasons consist of
straightforward arguments, not insinuation or innuendo.
One finds them in Aquinas and Anselm and elsewhere.

This continues today. There are a good number of
brilliant Christian philosophers presenting arguments
for theism; also trying to show how 'naturalism' actually
lacks the resources to explain the world scientifically.

I'm not persuaded, but the arguments are worth considering.
I'm not convinced they don't work, either.

Meanwhile skeptical philosophers like myself attack
those arguments; the Christians point out fallacies
in my objections. I modify my objections to avoid
their objections to them. And so it goes.
This is all going on in peer-
refereed journals.

This is nothing like talking to conspiracy theorists!
These are extraordinarily hard-headed and scientifically minded
people. They've been close to the center of Christian thought
back to Augustine.

There may be religions like conspiracy theories, but
mainstream Christianity doesn't qualify.

Also Christianity is falsifiable in principle. That is, what we
learn about the world can make it less plausible, at
least that's possible. But one doesn't expect this to
decisively disprove it. But this is also common
in science. What matters is that a theory is unlikely,
it doesn't need to be demolished.

So, before Darwinian Theory, God's existence was the
only plausible explanation of animal life and the various
species. Nothing naturalistic was at all plausible.

Darwin's Theory undercuts the traditional Argument From Design.
But, more seriously, it depicts a nature so terrible for
so long, hundreds of millions of years of animals being born or hatched in
numbers too large to survive, pitted in desperate
conflict against their siblings that most must lose,
that it's difficult to imagine how an omnibenevolent
God could create it.

The widespread and terrible suffering of our world,
especially of non-human animals, is a chief problem
for Christian belief. It doesn't necessarily defeat it, however.
And the responses of Christian philosophers to these
problems are too interesting and intelligent to ignore.

Note too that, even if the problem of suffering is a problem
for Christian theism, there may be powerful independent arguments
in Theism's favor that trump the problem. Most reasonable
accounts of the world have a more or less serious problem.
You consider the strengths, not just the difficulties.

Again, nothing like talking to conspiracy theorists!
This is more like science.

[KatieBell]

Orthodox Christianity, especially Roman Catholicism,
has maintained for millenia that there are reasons
sufficiently strong to persuade the rational uncommitted
individual that God exists. These reasons consist of
straightforward arguments, not insinuation or innuendo.
One finds them in Aquinas and Anselm and elsewhere.

Aquinas, Anselm, and Augustine are saints of the western Church. Eastern Christianity, including Orthodoxy, emphasizes the apophatic tradition over the kataphatic tradition.

The west's kataphatic tradition states what we can know of God in the positive. EX: God is wisdom, love, truth, and light.
The east's apophatic tradition states what we know God is not. It believes the kataphatic approach limits God and that we are unable to fully comprehend with our limited knowledge all of what God is. EX: God is ineffable, inconceivable, invisible, and incomprehensible.

It is therefore not surprising that the western tradition has come to understand the world through Natural Law and Divine Law. This difference has a broad-reaching theological effect between East and West as well. Because of its teaching on natural law, the western Church is able to say that all people are connected to God and therefore the Church when responding to God's natural law and therefore have the ability to be saved even without knowing the Gospel by living in accordance with the law as they know it. The East, however, with its emphasis on not knowing, will not affirmatively say where the Spirit of God is not as they do not wish to say there are limits on God. So they say of salvation outside the Church, "We know where the Spirit of God is, not where it isn't." In other words, they do not know if salvation is possible outside the Church but do know that it is possible within the Church.

Theological debate has a great history and a wealth of writings and knowledge to pull from, as Jim rightly points out. Like Jim, I wouldn't say conspiracy theorists pull from this wealth of knowledge. They pull from science and math almost exclusively in order to "prove" how it all happened. It is just that their "proof" is being "hidden" from the public.

Well... I thought this thread was really interesting, and not devoid of fun. But I guess I'll move on to something more lighthearted. We should have a Chiff and Fipple Pirate Day! Who needs a national backing?

[djm]

you folks managed to suck all the fun out of it rather quickly

Prove it!

djm

[jim stone]

Fun is for SISSIES!

[falkbeer]

This continues today. There are a good number of
brilliant Christian philosophers presenting arguments
for theism; also trying to show how 'naturalism' actually
lacks the resources to explain the world scientifically.

Also Christianity is falsifiable in principle. That is, what we
learn about the world can make it less plausible, at
least that's possible. But one doesn't expect this to
decisively disprove it. But this is also common
in science. What matters is that a theory is unlikely,
it doesn't need to be demolished.

I was just pointing out some similarities between religion and conspiracy theories. I never mentioned or pointed out Christianity or any other religion. I have the deepest respect for people with sincere religious belifes. There are however philosophical systems and other beliefs system that have some resemblence with religion - one well known example is communism (marxism). Having said that I maintain the position that any religious or metaphysical question is not a scientific question. It cannot even in priciple be neither verified nor falsified. I would like see anyone proving the exisitence of a God, or for that matters falsifie the theory. And a theory that cannot be falsified is not a scientific question at all. (Either you belive or you don´t) I agree that there are many interesting christian philosophers and scholars (and from other religions too!) - question like the human condition, ethics, moral, law, aesthetisc.

quote]This is nothing like talking to conspiracy theorists!
These are extraordinarily hard-headed and scientifically minded
people. They've been close to the center of Christian thought
back to Augustine.[/quote]

Perhaps it resemble true science, but it certanly isn´t. UFOologists, conspiracy theorist, creationists, scientologists, and many movements of today know that science is in high regard whit the general public and "borrows" much of the expressions and symbols from science to be able to diguise their weird ideas in what seem, to a layman, to be a fancy scientific theory. When scrutinized it´s most often just gibberish! Theories without any deeper understanding of scientific thinking dressed in a quasi scientific language - Just connect the red dots and everything will be OK!
Often, as I understand, conspiracy theorists and creationist don´t even understand their own theories. So what I mean is that either you believe or you don´t. And if you believe, the truth will be like salvation when you find it.

On the other hand... When we define ourselves as cultural beeings we almost always do so in contrast to other cultures or cultural phenomena.
If you´re a part of the mainstream paradigm you are often fascinated by the "other" because it help to define who you are. (men-women, gay-staight, outlaw bikers-ordinay citizens, christians-jews, east-west, communism-capitalism, etc). Perhaps conspiracy theories are so fascinating and beguiling to many people, even though they don´t belive in them. What they do is giving a brand new look at the dull old world. And it´s always interesting to look at an object in a different light from a different angel! By positioning the conspiracy theory outside and in contrast to the mainstream paradigm, the theorist are perhaps doing the mainstrem paradigm a favour by question it.

[The Weekenders]

On the other hand... When we define ourselves as cultural beeings we almost always do so in contrast to other cultures or cultural phenomena.
....
What they do is giving a brand new look at the dull old world. And it´s always interesting to look at an object in a different light from a different angel! By positioning the conspiracy theory outside and in contrast to the mainstream paradigm, the theorist are perhaps doing the mainstrem paradigm a favour by question it.

Way to go, Falkie! That's what I was getting at earlier about normalcy, etc etc. and viewing other's foothold on reality. I find myself looking more at WHY the theorists are coming up with their view more than facts presented. I study history more than psychology, yet am always coming back to the why, not the what of past human actions.

I love smarty-pants Chiffsters. Don't tell me this ain't fun! Welcome aboard, too, KatieBell.

[falkbeer]

Theological debate has a great history and a wealth of writings and knowledge to pull from, as Jim rightly points out. Like Jim, I wouldn't say conspiracy theorists pull from this wealth of knowledge. They pull from science and math almost exclusively in order to "prove" how it all happened. It is just that their "proof" is being "hidden" from the public.

I wouldn´t say that conspiracy theorists pull from religion. They might be, for all I know, religious analphabets. However religious beliefs systems has follow mankind since the dawn of time. My personal belief in this matter is that this trait is innate to the human nature. A religious expression or belief system, of a certain time will reflect the socio-economic structure of that society. When the society evolve over time so does religion. New "religions" fill the same basic functions as the old ones. But perhaps we don´t identify them at first as religions. Many of todays western societies are more secularize than ever. There is therefore a need for many people to fill this void. There are a new market for religious beliefs - Hare Krishna, New Age, UFOlogy, Scientology. Many new movements acts as a substitute for the old religions. What I mean is that Conspiracy theories, in a way, have the same function for many "modern" people, and in doing so they will tend resembles religious belief systems. This is perhaps an over simplified sociological explanation of a very complex phenomenon.