material... true or false?
- LorenzoFlute
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material... true or false?
i read an article on the m&e site where they explained that the material is not important and that a polymer flute can have exactly the same sound of a wooden flute...
today i made my first flute made of pvc, and although its perfectly in tune (it took me a lot of time) the quality of the sound is not even close to what i want... is that because of the material? so what they said on the m&e site wasnt true?
i was thinking that another explanation could be that the inside of the pipe is not perfectly smooth (not the holes, they are perfect), or that the cap (didnt find a cork) doesnt completely stop the air...
what do you think? can you give me some advice?
thank you
today i made my first flute made of pvc, and although its perfectly in tune (it took me a lot of time) the quality of the sound is not even close to what i want... is that because of the material? so what they said on the m&e site wasnt true?
i was thinking that another explanation could be that the inside of the pipe is not perfectly smooth (not the holes, they are perfect), or that the cap (didnt find a cork) doesnt completely stop the air...
what do you think? can you give me some advice?
thank you
- peeplj
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Actually, if I remember right, Michael Cronnolly points out that polymer won't have exactly the same sound as wood.
That said, the bore and tone hole profile and especially the cut of the embouchure have as much if not more to do with the way a flute sounds than does the material it's made from, as long as the material doesn't leak air.
On your homemade flute, I'd say look closely at your embouchure hole and also check to make sure nothing leaks any air at all. Even a tiny pinhole of a leak will destroy the sound and response of a flute.
It may take you many tries to get an embouchure hole cut that works well.
--James
That said, the bore and tone hole profile and especially the cut of the embouchure have as much if not more to do with the way a flute sounds than does the material it's made from, as long as the material doesn't leak air.
On your homemade flute, I'd say look closely at your embouchure hole and also check to make sure nothing leaks any air at all. Even a tiny pinhole of a leak will destroy the sound and response of a flute.
It may take you many tries to get an embouchure hole cut that works well.
--James
http://www.flutesite.com
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- LorenzoFlute
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so wt ur saying is that if you're very good at it you can make professional flutes out of any pvc pipe?
i have a few bamboo flute and the hole i made looks exactly like those ones... i wouldnt know what to do to make it better actually...
ehm... my flute doesnt have a tone hole: i cut the bottom of the flute and then i used a file to get the right note
the bore is standard i belive, i used a 2 cm diameter pipe (inner diameter: 1,7 cm) for a G flute...
this is taken from the m&e site:
i have a few bamboo flute and the hole i made looks exactly like those ones... i wouldnt know what to do to make it better actually...
ehm... my flute doesnt have a tone hole: i cut the bottom of the flute and then i used a file to get the right note
the bore is standard i belive, i used a 2 cm diameter pipe (inner diameter: 1,7 cm) for a G flute...
this is taken from the m&e site:
Polymer flutes can actually be superior in some regards to exotic wood flutes. Don't believe that? Well, did you ever hear of a little magazine called Scientific American? Yep, the one that publishes articles by Nobel prize winners and stuff. Well, how about checking out this article, then c'mon back and we'll talk...
So, as you now know, within reasonable limits, the material that a flute is made of has little to do with the sound, except to the extent that it limits the practical dimensions of the instrument and the type of finish you can put on the flute. A wood flute will never sound like a metal flute because it is impractical to make a wood flute with .016" wall thickness. And since our polymer flutes have generally the same dimensions and finish as traditional Irish wood flutes, the sounds are quite similar. Not exactly the same, mind you, since no two flutes have exactly the same dimensions, but the difference in sound is not primarily because of the difference in material. The difference in sound comes primarily from the art and skill of the flute maker.
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Re: material... true or false?
From a pipe or tube? Or did you turn a block of plastic on a lathe?Othannen wrote: ...today i made my first flute made of pvc..
~~
The distinctive sound of a wooden flute comes from it's conical bore, not he material.
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as far as i understand, it is the dimensions and way a flute is machined that change the characteristics. the differences between materials are because certain materials can be cut differently.
also, the more time you spend on making your homemade flutes, the better they will sound. i bet that the first flute you make out of wood (if you ever go there), will not much sound like a wooden flute either!
keep at it!
where are you getting your design specs?
also, the more time you spend on making your homemade flutes, the better they will sound. i bet that the first flute you make out of wood (if you ever go there), will not much sound like a wooden flute either!
keep at it!
where are you getting your design specs?
Re: material... true or false?
No.Othannen wrote:...the quality of the sound is not even close to what i want... is that because of the material?
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- peeplj
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Here's the bit from the M&E website where Michael Cronnolly explains that polymer isn't wood and won't sound exactly like wood:
http://www.irishflutes.net/mef/Bottom_Line.htm
http://www.irishflutes.net/mef/Bottom_Line.htm
--JamesHowever, polymer is not wood; it doesn't look like wood, and it doesn't machine like wood. Your polymer M and E flute will not look or sound exactly like an African blackwood flute.
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"Though no one can go back and make a brand new start, anyone can start from now and make a brand new ending" --Carl Bard
So, as you now know, within reasonable limits, the material that a flute is made of has little to do with the sound, except to the extent that it limits the practical dimensions of the instrument and the type of finish you can put on the flute. A wood flute will never sound like a metal flute because it is impractical to make a wood flute with .016" wall thickness. And since our polymer flutes have generally the same dimensions and finish as traditional Irish wood flutes, the sounds are quite similar. Not exactly the same, mind you, since no two flutes have exactly the same dimensions, but the difference in sound is not primarily because of the difference in material.
From Why Polymer? on the MandE site. This appears to
be claiming that dimensions and finish are the only true
determinants of a flute's sound. Material affects sound only
if/because it affects dimensions and finish. Polymer
sounds different from wood only to the extent that
it makes a difference to dimensions and finish.
This claim is supported by the concrete flute story from
Scientific American.
From Why Polymer? on the MandE site. This appears to
be claiming that dimensions and finish are the only true
determinants of a flute's sound. Material affects sound only
if/because it affects dimensions and finish. Polymer
sounds different from wood only to the extent that
it makes a difference to dimensions and finish.
This claim is supported by the concrete flute story from
Scientific American.
Last edited by jim stone on Fri Sep 07, 2007 3:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
- LorenzoFlute
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ok now i'll try to change the cap and to put a cork instead, so that i'm sure that it won leak air, then i'll tell you if it sounds better...
actually, how do you make a wooden flute? you would need some kind of expensive machine to make a pipe out of a piece of wood dont you? i mean, is not like a bamboo, you have to "dig" (is that the right word?) the inside part...
actually, how do you make a wooden flute? you would need some kind of expensive machine to make a pipe out of a piece of wood dont you? i mean, is not like a bamboo, you have to "dig" (is that the right word?) the inside part...
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Hi Othannen,
It sounds to me that you have made your flute from extruded PVC piping? If so, and it has a totally cylindrical bore, it doesn't matter how careful and clever you have been with the finger holes, embouchure cut or stopper placement and seal, it may have a good tone, but it won't play in tune "over the break" into the second octave unless the bore diameter is exactly in the right proportion to the length of the flute, as with some bamboo flutes and the Renaissance flute. That is unlikely working with pipe like Electrical Conduit Piping etc. and making a standard D flute. It will almost certainly play flat in the lower part if not the whole of the second octave, although you may well be able to "lip it in", which is a major problem when test tuning as you cut and adjust tone-holes! You can quite easily make a simple cylindrical flute that will have a strong and beautiful tone and play an in-tune scale of a seventh, from the bottom D up to open C#. After that, problems!!!!!!
I learnt all this the hard way some years ago, and that was with the benefit of having read Boehm's Treatise and various other works on flute acoustics and historic development - although I can't claim to have taken a scientific approach, just that I understood the theoretical problems. I strongly suggest that, instead of wasting time and effort and much heartache experimenting yourself, covering ground that much has been written about, that you read up on the issues. A good place to start is Doug Tipple's website (I'm assuming you aren't familiar with it - sorry if you are!) - he even has a solution to the bore-properties problem - the Tipple-Fajardo Wedge.
The fact that there are some makers of flutes in this type of material who are selling simple, basic cylindrical flutes does not mean that they have solved fundamental difficulties with the physics/acoustics of flute tubes. Very clever placement and sizing of tone-holes combined with a fairly small embouchure hole (which limits the strength of tone) can permit a (barely) tolerable tuning of the scale over 2 octaves, but such things, e.g. the Dixon ones, are not satisfactory beyond the "trying it out" beginners stage because the intonation problems are still there, just minimised.
The bottom line is that if you want a decently in-tune flute, you must either have a cylindrical head with a tapering conoid body, or a cylindrical body with a Boehm type "parabolic" reverse-tapering head. (The wedge mentioned above partially simulates this effect). In extruded tube, neither of these alternatives is easily achievable.
If your experiment is not making the sound you want, it will not be due to the material (although subjectively at least, most people do feel that materials make subtle differences, even if science suggests they are wrong!) but chiefly to the dimensions and cut of your embouchure - assuming that your original question was about the kind of tone it makes rather than the tuning of the scale. When you get the tone, you will still have the tuning problem.
Here's a link to Doug Tipple's website. You may find the "Flute Player's Guide" page a good place to start. It includes a discussion of the "Materials Question" too.
It is possible that your end stopper/cork even when it doesn't leak may be another source of problems, in that its placement is important both to intonation (tuning) and tone production.
You are quite right that working in wood (or solid forms of plastic) requires special tools and skills - lathes etc. The English word for making the hole through the material for the bore would probably be "hollowing it out" in lay terms: in technical terms, it is drilled and reamed.
Good luck!
It sounds to me that you have made your flute from extruded PVC piping? If so, and it has a totally cylindrical bore, it doesn't matter how careful and clever you have been with the finger holes, embouchure cut or stopper placement and seal, it may have a good tone, but it won't play in tune "over the break" into the second octave unless the bore diameter is exactly in the right proportion to the length of the flute, as with some bamboo flutes and the Renaissance flute. That is unlikely working with pipe like Electrical Conduit Piping etc. and making a standard D flute. It will almost certainly play flat in the lower part if not the whole of the second octave, although you may well be able to "lip it in", which is a major problem when test tuning as you cut and adjust tone-holes! You can quite easily make a simple cylindrical flute that will have a strong and beautiful tone and play an in-tune scale of a seventh, from the bottom D up to open C#. After that, problems!!!!!!
I learnt all this the hard way some years ago, and that was with the benefit of having read Boehm's Treatise and various other works on flute acoustics and historic development - although I can't claim to have taken a scientific approach, just that I understood the theoretical problems. I strongly suggest that, instead of wasting time and effort and much heartache experimenting yourself, covering ground that much has been written about, that you read up on the issues. A good place to start is Doug Tipple's website (I'm assuming you aren't familiar with it - sorry if you are!) - he even has a solution to the bore-properties problem - the Tipple-Fajardo Wedge.
The fact that there are some makers of flutes in this type of material who are selling simple, basic cylindrical flutes does not mean that they have solved fundamental difficulties with the physics/acoustics of flute tubes. Very clever placement and sizing of tone-holes combined with a fairly small embouchure hole (which limits the strength of tone) can permit a (barely) tolerable tuning of the scale over 2 octaves, but such things, e.g. the Dixon ones, are not satisfactory beyond the "trying it out" beginners stage because the intonation problems are still there, just minimised.
The bottom line is that if you want a decently in-tune flute, you must either have a cylindrical head with a tapering conoid body, or a cylindrical body with a Boehm type "parabolic" reverse-tapering head. (The wedge mentioned above partially simulates this effect). In extruded tube, neither of these alternatives is easily achievable.
If your experiment is not making the sound you want, it will not be due to the material (although subjectively at least, most people do feel that materials make subtle differences, even if science suggests they are wrong!) but chiefly to the dimensions and cut of your embouchure - assuming that your original question was about the kind of tone it makes rather than the tuning of the scale. When you get the tone, you will still have the tuning problem.
Here's a link to Doug Tipple's website. You may find the "Flute Player's Guide" page a good place to start. It includes a discussion of the "Materials Question" too.
It is possible that your end stopper/cork even when it doesn't leak may be another source of problems, in that its placement is important both to intonation (tuning) and tone production.
You are quite right that working in wood (or solid forms of plastic) requires special tools and skills - lathes etc. The English word for making the hole through the material for the bore would probably be "hollowing it out" in lay terms: in technical terms, it is drilled and reamed.
Good luck!
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- LorenzoFlute
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Stopper position does affect the tuning of the octaves - overblowing the fundamental to the first harmonic. You check your stopper position by testing the bottom D-middle D-high D intervals and also the low G-2nd G one. If the octave is too wide, move the cork back from the embouchure hole, if it is too narrow, push it in. Usually the rule-of-thumb distance of one head bore-width from the centre of the embouchure to the face of the cork works fine, and it should certainly be the starting place. However, on your simple cylinder, you will probably find that you can get an in-tune double octave from low D to high (3rd) D, but that the middle one will be flat, and so will most, if not all of the octaves up the rest of the scale, regardless of what you do with the cork, and it will make little or no difference to the tuning of the scale within each octave. Save yourself hours of frustration! Optimal cork position will help a little, but only a little. It doesn't solve the problem.
I respect people's privilege to hold their beliefs, whatever those may be (within reason), but respect the beliefs themselves? You gotta be kidding!
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