Tell us something.: Just updating my profile after 16+ years of C&F membership. Sold most of my flutes, play the ones I still own and occasionally still enjoy coming here and read about flute related subjects.
Cathy Wilde wrote:I still laugh at the day-long fiddle workshop Larry attended once with Kevin Burke where Mr. Burke wouldn't let a single person play a note until about the last half-hour of the day -- his opening statement was something along the lines of "Nobody play ANYTHING. I can't stand the sound of a bunch of fiddles."
Larry did get a few things out of the class, though, not the least of which was a good story!
Heh, try a whistle class on day 2 of a festival. Hangovers and 12 soprano whistles no good combination make.
My experience with workshops is that I do get something out of them - but believe that everybody would get so much more out of it if the groups were split up in levels of experience, or something.
Even if it means only getting part of a 2 day workshop with the teacher, would mean a lot more if I would be sitting with people roughly in the same league as me.
There are always 80% beginners in the Copenhagen Irish Festival workshops (and they DO play at the same time)
Talasiga, as I recall,
Your early posts tended
To resemble free verse as well.
I found it an unusually
Graceful
Way of communicating
On the internet
(Otherwise so dismally prosaic).
Anyway,
I had a week-long workshop with Chris Norman
At the Swannanoa Gathering
In 1995.
It absolutely blew the world of traditional flute playing
Wide open
For me.
The thing that made it work was that
I was absolutely ready for a teacher.
I'd been playing in relative isolation for years up till then;
I had so many questions and issues, So much stuff I knew I didn't know,
That I was in a perfect state to be taught.
I don't think anybody else in the class
Got what I got out of it.
Some people in there were really frustrated.
Different expectations, I suppose.
Full cups that couldn't be filled anymore.
But for me that week
Was like having a lightning bolt to my forehead
Every day.
No other class or workshop I've since been in
Has come close to that one,
In its synergy of such a great teacher
And me so ready for instruction.
My own cup is fuller than it used to be, I guess.
I think this is the problem with workshops in general
(Especially those at the "fantasy camps"
Like Augusta and Swannanoa):
People come with all kinds of expectations
That are bound to be disappointed
Instead of trusting a teacher
And humbly accepting what there is to learn from him or her.
They see themselves as customers,
Which is a terrible way to approach one's path into music.
Ro3b wrote:Talasiga, as I recall,
Your early posts tended
To resemble free verse as well.
I found it an unusually
Graceful
Way of communicating
On the internet
(Otherwise so dismally prosaic).
.........
Exactly - and thats why I said this
talasiga wrote:.........
Now, I have tolerated Jim's sendup of the layout of my posts for some years now but today it was just too much.
This might be a useful suggestion for teachers at workshops. Adding their tunes to a web site in advance so students can listen to / absorb them could be very useful. Most workshops from top players specify that they are not aimed at beginners. The web site could caution against trying to learn the tune in advance if you are not proficient in ‘by ear’; also caution against learning from print. The more advanced players could learn them beforehand then get some more advanced tips on playing the tunes at the workshop.
The one problem I have with most workshops is the way the tune is taught. I like to hear the tune as say the first part repeated over and then I join in. If it’s an unfamiliar tune and is broken into too many small parts it makes it harder for me to learn. I know this is just my personnal preference in learning and the class needs to cater best for a mixed bag.
I think workshops are good for developing learning by ear. After the event printed notes or ABC are useful for people who HAVE to have these or who couldn't bring recorders .
gorjuswrex wrote:
The one problem I have with most workshops is the way the tune is taught. I like to hear the tune as say the first part repeated over and then I join in. If it’s an unfamiliar tune and is broken into too many small parts it makes it harder for me to learn.
Tell us something.: Playing Scottish and Irish music in California for 45 years. These days many discussions are migrating to Facebook but I prefer the online chat forum format.
Trouble is, at most workshops you have a room of people who have a lot of differing learning modalities. Some learn by ear, some by sheet music. Of the ear learners, some are quick and some are so slow that it would take the entire hour for them to learn a 2-part tune if the teacher worked with them one-on-one the entire time. The workshop will grind to a halt if it is done at the pace of very slow ear-learners.
As a teacher you have to shoot for the middle, which means that very quick learners will be bored a bit and very slow learners will be left behind somewhat. The only way to avoid this would be to somehow assess people's learning modality and speed in advance, and group accordingly, which is impracticable.
I hand out music AND play the tune repeatedly so as to address as many different learning styles as I can.
One of my best experiences as a teacher was at a summer camp where all the people attending my flute workshop were sightreaders. We were able to cover an amazing amount of ground in a week, getting a lot of tunes under our belt and working on a lot of techniques.
gorjuswrex wrote:This might be a useful suggestion for teachers at workshops. Adding their tunes to a web site in advance so students can listen to / absorb them could be very useful. Most workshops from top players specify that they are not aimed at beginners. The web site could caution against trying to learn the tune in advance if you are not proficient in ‘by ear’; also caution against learning from print. The more advanced players could learn them beforehand then get some more advanced tips on playing the tunes at the workshop.
The one problem I have with most workshops is the way the tune is taught. I like to hear the tune as say the first part repeated over and then I join in. If it’s an unfamiliar tune and is broken into too many small parts it makes it harder for me to learn. I know this is just my personnal preference in learning and the class needs to cater best for a mixed bag.
I think workshops are good for developing learning by ear. After the event printed notes or ABC are useful for people who HAVE to have these or who couldn't bring recorders .
Interesting ideas: but workshops I've been too, the 'teacher' wants to avoid doing a tune that 'students' might know - so very hard to figure that out in advance.
As regards breaking up tunes, the better tutors I have experienced start by playing the whole tune a few times, then part A a few times. They then break it into phrases to follow by ear but QUICKLY build the phrases up so as to make sense of the whole. If they figure that a certain passage is causing difficulty, they'll go back and do that phrase again. I agree that too long spent on small phrases whilst each person learns every exact note or whatever is counter productive.
The better tutors also play the tune slow and normal for people to record and give out notes afterwards as required. But I have seen some who were too lazy to do this even when requested. My son did a workshop with a well known young box player two years in a row - his recordings are all played at a pretty fast tempo with lots of ornamentation and no notes at all despite request. But OTOH, he's good craic and my son enjoyed the weeks and came back with renewed enthusiasm which is the main thing.
Interesting ideas: but workshops I've been too, the 'teacher' wants to avoid doing a tune that 'students' might know - so very hard to figure that out in advance.
Yes I had that in mind and it's tricky all right. As the learners will always have certain degree of split, slow / fast learners etc, maybe it's just as well to accept the split of players who know the tunes already and those who don't. If there are a number of tunes being covered its could be that most players will get at least one new tune.
The later group could be treated in more of the 'master class' set up that has been mentioned. Often the two sets of learners can gain something from sitting in with each other’s class i.e. advanced or improvers class. If resources, egg an extra room, are available I can think of ways to keep the advanced group occupied. Often this is now possible. A good instructor can add enough to give the advanced group something during the improvers section. I was really thinking of classes with top players being the instructors. I don't think it would work for classes that include beginners.
Following on.
I’ve only been to five workshops…I’d love to get more. I think they all specified in the publicity that they were for players who were fairly comfortable with learning by ear. Although some gave the ABC’s or dots at the end they were really aimed at ‘by ear’.
For those who have had Willy week or Scoil Eigese and similar workshops, (i.e. those with top level Irish Trad players as tutors) are these also run as by ear, at least for intermediate / advanced players?
My experience has been with week long camps; I've done 3 or 4 with Catherine McEvoy and 1 Boxwood camp where I first met Catherine and at which Mike Rafferty (and Chris Norman) also taught. I'd been playing for about a year at the Boxwood camp, and Catherine's approach to teaching is what really got me into Irish trad flute playing. After Boxwood she began teaching at the Friday Harbor camp in Washington state, which has been a fantastic opportunity for us U.S. West Coast flute players.
Her classes follow a general pattern. She will play the tune (typically one that nobody in the class knows) first at session tempo, with variations and interesting ornaments. That way you get to hear the tune the way she'd play it at a session, or in concert. You get your recorder out for this! These recordings become goldmines of useful information for the future, since as you refer back and become a better player you can pick out more of the idiosyncratic bits. Listening back just to where an excellent player like Catherine breathes, for example, can be very informative.
Then she'll play each section of the tune slowly, repeating it until the class picks it up by ear and can pretty much play along. When the class fairly well has the tune under their fingers she'll write the tune out in abc format on the chalkboard, putting in her system of marks for where a cut, tap, roll or breath would go. She breaks her playing down right to each element. Seeing it that way really worked for me, especially as a beginner. She's an excellent "splainer" when it comes to rolls and the like, and always is quick to come over and show anyone who asks how to play an ornament or a bit they're having trouble with. For a couple years she tried to go around the class having each student play something for a bit of a critique, but that ended a few years ago when one woman melted down and ran sobbing from the room. These days she'll just ask each student during the breaks if they're doing okay or if there's anything they're working on that she could help with.
Having played for 7 years now, I feel like I have absorbed a certain part of her style, particularly how she phrases a tune and where she breathes. I don't feel that I'd be anywhere near the player that I am (and I'd be quick to say I'm at best a middling intermediate level player) without having the basic building blocks put before me the way she has.
If I were at shorter one or two hour festival workshops with a pro player, I think I'd like to hear them play a favorite tune or two and go through them with their thinking on where they breathe, and why. Also, any unusual ornaments and "debatable" techniques, like tonguing triplets and the like. If they had some history about the tune, where they'd heard it, etc., that would add a dimension too. I feel in a short span of time there's no way to really get to each student at their level, but there might be a way to offer some insights into how and why the teacher plays the way they do. The workshops where the teacher just tries to teach everyone a tune don't offer much at all, unfortunately, since the skill level is so all over the map that usually the class must be geared to the lowest common denominator.
Mike Rafferty's Boxwood classes were great from this inspirational aspect. Just being in the room with him and hearing his playing and stories is so immensely satisfying and enjoyable. A good teacher is an inspiration, and I know Mike is a major inspiration to many of us. He's a source, like a fountain of wisdom. Chris Norman's classes at Boxwood were awe inspiring. He taught tunes strictly by ear, which I wasn't ready for at that stage. But just being in a room at close range and watching him get that resounding tone was thrilling. If that camp wasn't so far away I'd be back every year, just to soak up more of the variety of techniques and music that is available every year at Boxwood.
I've done the group thing in the form of the workshops at a short event (like the daytime ones at a 1-2 day meeting), and I think that for beginners they don't seem all that helpful, but for advanced players they can be very helpful with some caveats.
I respect the comments of others from the board, but I have to say that when I classified myself as "beginner," my playing was very different from some other beginners. I think the first pitfall of the workshop is the difficulty in self-assessment of level of play. Beginner can mean ain't-never-touched-a-flute to I-only-know-10-tunes. Very different. Although it is perhaps more compelling to hear Dave Migoya say, "The key to playing the flute is breath support," for example, (not that he says that, I don't know), it's no more valid than if read in a book. I bet that a lot of beginner workshops "degenerate" into learn-a-tune sessions because it may be the least common denominator.
However . . . and I suppose this is my bias . . . the masterclass is the most effective technique and it can work for any group as long as the group can meet some minimum standard. I think I've benefitted the most from the workshops in which the group (no matter how large) has all been more-or-less at a similar level of play. Then the instructor made us all play (solo, of course) in front of the group and critiqued/taught/admonished/supported.
I guess for the neophyte, a group lesson seems hard in that the neophyte needs individualized attention.
Gosh, is my Western music training/background showing?
Wow. So steeped am I in my own culture. Maybe I should be quiet.
sturob wrote:Gosh, is my Western music training/background showing?
Wow. So steeped am I in my own culture. Maybe I should be quiet.
Stuart
I've been thinking about the cultural aspect. If we're learning from folks who are teaching "flute" as the focus, it's different than if we're learning from someone teaching "Irish traditional music on the flute" with the emphasis on the tradition. There's a tremendous validity in maintaining the tradition, even if it's not the most efficient teaching mode for everyone present.
I tend to put in lots of questions (quit rolling your eyes, those who've been at workshops with me) that make an attempt to swing the teaching style to match my learning style... then occasionally I remember to sit back, listen, and learn from a master.
I bet there are lots of jokes about "how do you spot the classically trained musician in a workshop?" among instructors.
Tell us something.: Playing Scottish and Irish music in California for 45 years. These days many discussions are migrating to Facebook but I prefer the online chat forum format.
I don't know about jokes, but the Top Ten Ways to Spot a Classical Flutist at an Irish Flute Workshop are:
1) they're playing a Boehm flute
2) they're playing a Baroque flute
3) they're playing an Irish flute but have a Boehm or Baroque flute in their lap
4) they play with bent fingers
5) the end of the flute makes a big circle in the air while they play
6) they have that "classical flute" face when they play- big pucker, head down, eyes looking upward (to the non-existent conductor and/or sheet music, I suppose)
7) they tongue every note they play an invariable, strong vibrato on every note
9) if playing a keyed flute, they often press the E flat key
10) they play "rolls" like classical "turns"
they play an invariable, strong vibrato on every note