RH Bb PM APB, SVP

[eilam]

took pictures this morning, they are not great, but the flute is.
it's R&R #4932.
i have never posted pictures, and at the moment don't have the time to learn, could i email them to anyone here? and you'd post them? thanks, eilam.

i'd love to learn to post pictures, so if there is a very simple way.............otherwise, i'd need an email address....
thanks, eilam.

[Denny]

upload them to your server and point at 'em
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=23407

[Sillydill]

Here is a picture of the double touches for the Bb on Eilam's R&R:



This is a rather unique and elegant arrangement, I've never seen another like this one.

Thanks for the picture Eilam!

[sclery]

My Glenn Watson flute, which I am collecting on Thursday, has a right hand Bb touch but no left hand (since I don't use the left hand touch, no point having both)

I will put up pictures, if you like?

[Gostrangely]

A picture of the double Bb touches on my recently purchased german flute.



Another interesting point regarding this flute is that the keys are held with pins rather than screws. Does anybody know if this helps date the flute or is it simply a cheaper way of fixing.

Which is shortly on it's way to Jon C for an overhaul.

[jemtheflute]

Eilam's R&R (lovely looking flute, BTW - wanna see more!) Bb arrangement is a post-mounted version of their normal double Bb touches as provided on block-mounted flutes - like mine, R&R 4683 - I'll try to post a pic for comparative purposes soon. Elegant, yes; "unique" - hardly!
As others have pointed out, double Bbs (among other things!) are not unusual on German/Austrian style flutes from the later C19th. I have a rather nice version on my Italian (Rampone Fratelli e Cuggini) Viennese style 12-key which I will also shoot and post....... Watch this space.

OK, here they are, two pics from slightly different angles to show full detail. In both shots the Rampone is the upper flute and the R&R the lower. BTW, the Rampone has German Silver keys, the R&R real silver, but the light doesn't make it that obvious. The R&R is from 1843, the Rampone any time between 1856 and 1912.

[jemtheflute]

Leg up!

[Rob Sharer]

Thanks to everyone who posted photos. Eilam's R&R is my favorite one so far, for its resemblance to the standard R&R 2-touch Bb setup. The question is, of the makers who fit/retrofit post-mounted keys, who would be willing to copy this setup? Cheers,

Rob

[cocusflute]

Q for Eilam- do you use the rt hand Bb touch? It's a grasshopper key, like the lower C# and C keys. Wouldn't that make the touch a bit slow to respond because of the mechanical disadvantage? It looks lovely, but the block mounted Rudall that Jem posted seems simpler and more elegant, and would seem to promise quicker response.

[Rob Sharer]

I don't see any difference in how the post and block versions of the extra Bb touch would operate. Both are simply levers to tip open the Bb key, as opposed to the foot keys which a) constitute the whole mechanism to play the required note, and b) stay open until actuated, the reverse of the Bb. On the R&Rs I've seen with this feature, the extra touch is very lightly sprung, just enough to keep the lever from rattling. I'm imagining that the post-mounted version is no different.

So, how about it, Eilam? What's it like?

Rob

[jemtheflute]

Cocus, mechanically Eilam's and mine are identical, it's just the pivot/mounting set up that is different. Both feature a tongue on the forward (down-tube) edge of the key-cup projecting over a little shelf on the end of a simple lever that is the extra touch, which just lifts the key-cup from the opposite direction to its own integral touch. The mechanism is related to the "grasshopper" keys on the foot to the extent that a long lever is lifting one end of another pivoted element, but different in that here it is working against a spring on the otherwise normal Bb key to open the key by lifting its working end, whereas on foot C/C# keys the long lever lifts the end of an unsprung pivoted element to apply downwards pressure on that's far end to close a hole. The extra Bb touch also has its own light spring to move it when the Bb key is operated by its standard, integral touch, so it doesn't flap about or rattle, which also makes it lighter to use. On this point I assume, but can't see, that Eilam's is similar to mine. I certainly do make some use of mine in certain fingering patterns in e.g. G minor or F major - there's one particular roll in the Twopenny Jig, for example.... - , and it is far easier than the thumb key for trilling, should one wish/need to do so.

I certainly cannot see any mechanical difference between Eilam's and my flutes here, and would doubt a player would notice one. So it comes down to aesthetics - does one prefer the look of block or pillar mounted keys? The latter took over because they were cheaper to make (or at least, reduced complexities and potential slip-ups in turning the wooden tubes) and because they (should, if well designed/placed) get in the way less (especially as more and more keys got added), and because some people at the time thought they produced a more elegant and streamlined instrument without all those awkward lumps and bumps! They were Progress! Not saying I prefer 'em, just pointing out the history.

[cocusflute]

On the picture above, that Sillydill posted, it looks to me as if there are two pivot points, as you'd find on the lower two keys on an eight key flute. Am I mistaken?

[eilam]

you know, i have no problem with using the LH thumb for the Bb, and the extra touch is in my way for the upper C key which i like using, the keywork on this R&R is the most elegant i have yet seen on any flute, but i would have preferred to not have that extra touch.......if i was not terrified of loosing it, i'd just take the touch off, it's really easy to do.
the touch also forces me to turn the RH joint out a bit, which i turn makes me have to life my RH elbow more, thats OK though, kind of feels more springy and faster action (my fingers).
as for key makers............what about Micheal Hubbert (cocus you know him?), i think he's in Compchi (SP)CA, and did a lot of work for Rod Cameron.
cocus, the touch has just one pivot point.

[Rob Sharer]

Cocus, what you're perceiving is an illusion caused by the arrowhead shape of the key shank(s) where they're soldered onto the cup. I had to look at it for awhile myself until it all resolved - it's much bulkier than the standard style one usually sees. The mechanism is the simple one Jem described. Cheers,

Rob

[eilam]

i took two pictures of the Bb key pressed from ether touch, it makes it easy to understand the line that you see right where the key stabilizer.
again, i'd be happy to email it to anyone that want, or to someone that would load them onto the site.
thanks, e.