jim stone wrote:Suppose you could only get one F natural key?
Which is more useful, the short or the long?
Which Fnat key? You think you have troubles?
Try a Boehm, which gives a player three Bb keys.
Well, it does say Flute Forum...
And, the dark side goes darker!
Actually not all Boehm-system flutes have all three. Sometimes the little B-flat shake touch is omitted so that other keys may be added, like a G trill or a B to C trill, or both.
Customized Boehm-system flutes aren't hard to come by; my instructor's flute in college had another touch for L4 beside the A-flat spatula which was for a "true" (i.e. not cross-fingered) F-sharp.
jim stone wrote:Suppose you could only get one F natural key?
Which is more useful, the short or the long?
Which Fnat key? You think you have troubles?
Try a Boehm, which gives a player three Bb keys.
Well, it does say Flute Forum...
And, the dark side goes darker!
Actually not all Boehm-system flutes have all three. Sometimes the little B-flat shake touch is omitted so that other keys may be added, like a G trill or a B to C trill, or both.
Customized Boehm-system flutes aren't hard to come by; my instructor's flute in college had another touch for L4 beside the A-flat spatula which was for a "true" (i.e. not cross-fingered) F-sharp.
--James
OK, for the first, and last, time on this board, I will let it be known that all of my Boehm flutes are open G#(talk about an odd duck!). BTW, the original Boehm flute was in open G#.
To say that the Boehm F# is crossfingered is technically correct, and I will add, that perhaps a majority of Irish flute players could have no idea how fortunate they are not to have an R3 F#.
True, also, the R1 Bb touch could have a substitute touch, but perhaps not the norm.
Oh, yeah, apparently none of this has anything to do with the Fnat question, sorry to be off topic, here.
That's fine. I very much appreciate these posts.
Hammy H. retrofits keys, as you know. His 4-key
flute is considerably cheaper than his 6-key,
which led to the question: which 4 keys would
I want? I want a C natural cause I find it helpful
and use it a lot, a G sharp, an Eb and
an F natural. But I can't have both F naturals
on this plan, so....
Not that I'm necessarily going to do this.
Man are we Yanks getting walloped on the
Euro! But I seem to have a need to connive
about getting this flute or that improvement...
It seems to me both positions are very well
argued in this thread, in fact. Impressive.
I need to go over these
in detail. Thanks.
jim stone wrote:...I want a C natural cause I find it helpful
and use it a lot, a G sharp, an Eb and
an F natural. But I can't have both F naturals
on this plan, so.......
Yes, you can have both Fnats, along with a G# and an Eb, for a total of four keys.
The real Cnat you are looking for is OXO XXO, for both the first and second registers. Yeah, yeah, OXX OOO is the usual fingering given for Cnat, and it seems to give the easiest Cnat, but it has that crossfingered sound, no matter what one does, yet OXO XXO can in most Irish flutes produce a sound otherwise unlike a crossfingered note.
My vote would always be long F... but, if you're going to play tunes in F, you'll also want a Bflat key. They kind of go together...
So, you could either buy a 5-key flute, with one of the F's (take your pick) - or a 3 key and save yourself the extra cost... ... but accept that tunes in F are out of your range.
Or just go the whole hog and buy a 6-key - to stop you coming back for more!
I'd go for the short one. I had a long F added on my pipes and found it kind of awkward to use which I didn't expect. My new flute (which I got after the pipes) has both, and I find myself to use the short F key much more frequently. I sometimes use both keys alternately to keep both techniques fluid, for example in the tune "The Cook in the Kitchen".
I too was going to suggest that if you are really financially constrained to 4 keys, get a C nat thumb-hole, G#, both Fs and an Eb. If you wanted a Bb as well, it would have to be R1 operated though.
Alternatively, for a lot less money than a Hammy or any other new flute with keys, get a mid-range old one with all 8! Especially if it is your first foray into keydom. Why potch around (unnecessarily) with half-measures? It will offer you all you could wish for key-wise, and probably make you work that bit harder at using them. If it doesn't have the ultimate sound and intonation you may want, you can always sell it when you upgrade to a fully keyed Hammy or whoever, all ready prepared to use that to the optimum.
I currently have ready for sale (but I'm not fully ready to post it properly here - pics, sound samples, full description to do.... so much to do, so little time!) a very nice late C19th or early C20th German, unbranded, blackwood 8-key/five joint with excellent intonation, even response and, when you find its sweet spot, a very decent honk: fully overhauled and in pristine condition save for one small scratch, no splits, largish (modified) embouchure. Asking price £320.00 GBP plus any transaction fees and carriage. Ready now, vouched for, very good intermediate flute with the full kit. Why pay more for less? To put it in perspective, you'd have to look at at least somthing like an Ormiston to match it - and fully keyed flutes from modern makers at that end of the market start at about £1200 GBP. If you want to experiment with keys and see if that is a route you wish to pursue, I'd say try this first for value for money. Any interest, PM me.
I respect people's privilege to hold their beliefs, whatever those may be (within reason), but respect the beliefs themselves? You gotta be kidding!
Thanks for this generous offer. I already have a six key
flute, and until recently I owned a Grinter 8-key.
What you see before you are the ravages of
FLOAH. As mentioned, I'm not really going to buy
a four keyed flute, I just need to connive and
scheme about flutes. And I'm curious about
them and wish tolearn more, as I often
do here.
Cork, I've long used the cross fingering you mention,
along with several other C natural fingerings.
The C natural key gets me another sound, though
I like the cross fingered sound, but the key
facilitates a number of fingerings, it's nice to
have the left hand a bit less active, especially as
there is lately a tendency toward injury.
However I mostly play unkeyed flutes and, even
when playing keyed, often use cross fingering
on the C natural, including the one you recommend.
Tal, I would, in my greedy fantasy of retrofitting my
Hammy keyless for four keys, dispense with the
Bb key because I can easily half hole the Bb note.
That's the key i least need.
I can manage half holing the G sharp too, but less easily,
the Eb is third down, and the F natural hardest for
me.
Thanks again for all these interesting and helpful posts.
P.S. I've yet to try a flute with a C natural thumb hole.
Thanks for this suggestion.
I am very surprised at the number of folks who prefer the short F-nat. It's not that I have any investment in being "right" about the long F, but it just seems so much easier to me. I will stipulate, however, that I never play in flatted keys on my eight-key. The Bb is just altogether too awkward. I play in C quite often, though, and that might explain my preference for the long F. Also, in a tune like "Give Me Your Hand," there is that lovely accidental F-nat coming up from D (the exact same phrase is used in "Ashogan Farewell", btw), where I just think it easer to lift the D finger and come down on the long F with the left pinky, rather than rolling the D finger over to the short F. In almost any tune in C, the long F seems the most easy and natural to play.
So, in the end, I guess it depends on what you will use the key for. For me, the expendable keys are the Bb and the short F. I use all the others quite regularly.
"In times of trial, swearing often provides a solace denied even to prayer." - Mark Twain
I hardly ever use my Bb key. I always cross-finger that one. I like having both options for F-natural, because I do use them both. With C-natural, I often use Oxx/OOO, but also use my key when it's handy. I like options. But the Bb key is SO awkward for me--which is weird because I've played thumb Bb on Boehm flute for years with no trouble. I just don't like the Bb key on the Irish flute. That's just me.
short short short ... so much easier to use ... (I should admit, though, that that's the only F natural key I have on my flute so using a long one, that isn't there, would be a bit of a challenge). I have a nice George Rudall 7 - keyed flute which I don't play as much as I should. It is a fully keyed flute from its own era - before the long F natural key was added to give a flute yet another place to leak from. Someone else has already explained this aspect of the evolution of flute keys.
I'm sorry this post wasn't short, as an F natural key on a flute should be.
Cubitt wrote:I am very surprised at the number of folks who prefer the short F-nat. It's not that I have any investment in being "right" about the long F, but it just seems so much easier to me. I.
I think the post on which this whole key pivots is your sentence here. You find the long F easier, and apparently others (myself included) find the short F easier. On my keyed flute, I have both the long and short F. I find that I need to remind myself that I have a long F key, when I use one. It is easier for certain transitions, but the move with that pinky just doesn't feel natural.
I don't advocate Boehm use for trad playing, but once you start discussing ease-of-key use, the whole 4,6,8 key thing becomes kind of silly beside a Boehm -- keyed conicals are all awkward when you get chromatic, or play in awkward key signatures. For the occasional F nat, the short seems to me the best. Having both is probably best. The C natural key, I never did understand.
The only time I use the long key is if I want to play D before or after the F, but for that particular circumstance the long key is essential. But then I often use F-nat as a tap onto F#, and for that the short key works a lot better. I'd feel crippled if I didn't have both keys.
