Upper hand "rolls" with Cnat key instead of tappin

[Gabriel]

I catch myself regularly to "roll" A's and B's by cutting them and then striking the Cnat key with my right index finger instead of tapping with my (very slow) left hand fingers. I guess this is mainly because I'm really seriously lazy. It sounds more like a cran (as it actually IS a kind of short cran) of course, but well, it works...

Are there others who do this, or am I alone? Should I learn it the "regular" way?

[Cubitt]

Not a thing wrong with what you're doing if it sounds good. I've tried it, actually, and haven't been able to make it work.

[BrendanB]

It's certainly up to you how you do it, but as you mention, you do get a different sound tapping the note below than you do just cutting another note above (particularly if you are using a key). My advice would be to learn how to roll by cutting and tapping. I think it's a bad habit to start avoiding ornamention just because it's hard to execute at first. Try practicing upper hand rolls for a couple weeks each time you play and I'm sure you'll pick it up. That said, there are plenty of good flute players who rarely play a roll and others that have their own way of playing a roll.

Brendan

[Gabriel]

I recorded a fast 'n dirty sample of how it sounds. The quite special/modern shape of my Cnat key helps a lot, I wasn't able to get this result on traditionally block-mounted Cnat keys of Aebi and Hamilton flutes. My own flute is a Reviol with post-mounted keys.

Here's the sample.

I don't know why my left hand's fingers are so slow on the flute, I don't have any problems on the piano at all, and whistling works quite well too...

[BrendanB]

I don't know why my left hand's fingers are so slow on the flute, I don't have any problems on the piano at all, and whistling works quite well too...

If you don't normally have problems, it may be because you are holding too much of the flute's weight with your left hand and end up gripping it too hard, which makes your fingers less mobile. Does it help if you consciously relax your left hand?

B

[Gabriel]

Not really, maybe a little bit - I'm still slow then. The problem is not the cut - cutting with the left hand works fine. It's just the tap which is slow and kind of uncontrollable. It either works or doesn't, I can't do anything about that.

[jim stone]

Practice left-hand taps, I suggest. When you play, spend a
couple of minutes methodically tapping.
It will come. (four and one-half years of
doing the impossible).

[RudallRose]

Garbriel
I did this when I started playing, too. it's easy and cures your "must-have-it-now" desire to get the sound.
But it's not the same ornament at all. You're actually doing a double-cut on the top of the A note, which is very different than a cut and tap.
Nevertheless, you can work it until you have the other solid, and then make the total switch. It is not a good idea to use this technique alone since it will inhibit the need to practice and learn the other properly.

Sometimes I still use it, though, when my left hand gets particularly tired after a very long night and someone decides it a good idea to play tunes with many A rolls in them.

Have the faith and keep at it. Just takes time.

here's a tip on rolling a high A instead of the left ring finger: finger A, cut with first finger, tap with first two fingers of the right hand (keeping ring finger of left hand up).
Only works on the high A , though.

dm

[jim stone]

Another thing I find tempting:

when rolling the A,
I sometimes do the cut simply by tapping the c natural key,
then tap with L3 as usual.

Sounds OK, I think.

Not out of laziness--I'm most playing unkeyed.

Is there some reason why this is unkosher?

[rama]

I recorded a fast 'n dirty sample of how it sounds. The quite special/modern shape of my Cnat key helps a lot, I wasn't able to get this result on traditionally block-mounted Cnat keys of Aebi and Hamilton flutes. My own flute is a Reviol with post-mounted keys.

Here's the sample.

I don't know why my left hand's fingers are so slow on the flute, I don't have any problems on the piano at all, and whistling works quite well too...

hey i like it, sounds fine to me. it's rhythmic not melodic , so who cares what you do?

[daiv]

I recorded a fast 'n dirty sample of how it sounds. The quite special/modern shape of my Cnat key helps a lot, I wasn't able to get this result on traditionally block-mounted Cnat keys of Aebi and Hamilton flutes. My own flute is a Reviol with post-mounted keys.

Here's the sample.

I don't know why my left hand's fingers are so slow on the flute, I don't have any problems on the piano at all, and whistling works quite well too...

the c key doesnt have the right pop... it makes it sound like you're messing up, especially towards the beginning of your recording.

i tried it on my flute. it works on the a, but it sounds like junk on the b.

listening to your clip, i have two things to say: 1.) leave out the rolls you cant do, as nobody will think the less of you and 2.) slow down. you're a fine, solid player. playing too fast makes it sound like you're not.

everybody's left hand is slow on the flute, because all of the tendons are tighter due to the position of the left arm and the angle of the left hand. it just takes that much more work for everybody, not just irish musicians.

[daiv]

i tried it on my flute. it works on the a, but it sounds like junk on the b.

*cough* ahem. played on a wooden flute with keys.... my profile picture might seem disagree if i didnt clarify!

now, if you had any questions about my fabulous, dave copley headjoint, or how to ornament on a silver flute, then perhaps my avatar might not be so misleading!

[Cathy Wilde]

here's a tip on rolling a high A instead of the left ring finger: finger A, cut with first finger, tap with first two fingers of the right hand (keeping ring finger of left hand up).
Only works on the high A , though.

dm

That's really neat, David. Thank you!!!!!! Wish I could use such a trick on the low A, but I guess in this case half A's is better than no A's at all!

[Cathy Wilde]

Ooh, I also just tried David's technique on the G-sharp roll that has bedeviled me for years on the 2nd time thru the B part of "The Handsome Young Maidens" (Charlie Lennon's wondrous A jig). It's a bit klugey, but it works! COOL! Now I can hang with the fiddle players.

THANK YOU!!!!!!

[jemtheflute]

Not sure this is worth posting..... haven't posted before because this thread doesn't really make sense to me, but I've just re-read it, gone from the computer downstairs to pick up a flute and checked it out. I absolutely cannot understand what the difficulty is with rolls in the L hand, or between hands, or over the break. I can roll on A or B just as readily as anywhere else. If I need a roll to C nat on B, yes, I tap the long C for the cut, but I have no difficulty tapping with any of my L hand fingers - even L1 for a B tap in a C# roll - and can't see why anyone "normal" should do so. I understand the points that have been made about using extra taps including with the key as means of achieving a cran-type efect if desired, but I agree with others that they are extras, not a substitute for mastering the true rolls/turns.
Unless one has a definite medical condition causing finger-mobility problems, one should be able to do any roll, and the L hand position is not, or should not be, any more movement restricting than the R. My advice is to keep working on them, concentrating as ever on relaxed control with positive movement. I have found it helpful for some people I've taught ornaments to to suggest that a tap is like (without tension or exaggerated movement) "throwing" your finger at the flute tube and bouncing it off the hole - make the "throw" controlled and the rest of the motion relaxed. Don't "put" your finger on the hole as you would to play the note normally - that is too slow. "Let" your finger rebound (but not too far!) off the tube back to its "ready" position. Relax, relax, relax! And practice.....go back to doing taps and cuts separately, making sure you don't tense up beyond the momentary tension necessary to move at all. Do 'em in sequences up and down the scale for both hands. Only then start combining them into rolls. If you find you have problems moving L hand fingers freely, sort that out first (plenty of previous threads on "grip", posture etc.), then address the ornaments.