Hard time remembering

[Roger O'Keeffe]

Agreed (and Hiya, Martin, en passant).

It's important to have a feel for how the phrases fit together. Each part of an Irish tune is normally made up of four building blocks, each two bars long, though the phrases commonly include one or more "upswing" notes that are shown before the bar line. To make things worse, the black dot crowd commonly beam together notes of the same value, even where they belong to different phrases.

If I were a mathematician I would now whip out a piece of paper and write something like
A= a1+a2+a3+a4
B= b1+b2+b3+b4

If you mentally rearrange each part in keeping with its musical logic - and if the black dot crowd had any sympathy for the great unwashed and wrote tunes out intelligently and intuitively - the parts could be written out as

a1 a2
a3 a4 (repeat)
b1 b2
b3 b4 (repeat, then return to A and repeat all ad libitum).

You will then notice that in most cases a1= a3 and b1= b3 (give or take a variation or two). a2 and a4 are often related, but a4 either resolves the melody or leads you into the B part.

In some tunes (and now we're moving on to the honours course), the repeat of b4 may be the same as a4, which leads you back into the A part again.

Which makes it all sound very complicated, and if you can learn intuitively all to the good, but some learners find it useful to have a more abstract idea of what is going on, especially if they are not over-familiar with Irish music.

But above all enjoy it and, as Martin says, don't try to reproduce every note slavishly, by listening a lot you'll gradually get an idea of what sounds right.

[Nanohedron]

Great discussion, and timely for me as I'm guiding an ear-learning group lately. Any and all input appreciated, as individual situations and personalities vary, and the key(s) for one will not unlock doors for another, or at least as effectively. Of course, nothing replaces the old hands-on beginner's exercise of the listen-and-repeat-as-needed-learn-the-next-phrase-and-string-'em-together-and-then-if-you-forget-the-next-day-just-do-it-all-over-again-as-needed method, but there's more to life than just that, and mental keys, paradigms, what have you, are most valuable, I think, and the greater the grab bag, the more fruitful my task has a chance to be. Plus I like talk breaks.

I forget who said it, but it's often said you should never try to play a tune you don't already know by heart. i.e. be able to sing, lip-whistle or hear it in your head from memory before picking up your instrument.

I heartily dislike saying "never", but yep, pretty true in that one only courts frustration otherwise. I tell them that being able to reproduce a tune, even if only in one's head, is the final fruit (barring skill level), and you can take it from there. One of the group, a fiddler, has complained more than once that the source she was listening to was in a different key than that of a tune as we were playing it. Which, I remarked, "exotic" keys not being so uncommon these days, indicated that she was trying to play along. Nothing wrong with that in itself, but playing along isn't really a good memorisation exercise IMO, and when you're up against a different key, well...but that's a prime opportunity to really work the ear-learning thing, for, as I told her, ultimately the key doesn't matter. The tune - IOW, the progression of pitch relationships - does.

I'm always stressing getting the "bones" and seeing variations for what they are as best they can for their present level, which will improve as they go. A somewhat fluid concept, the "bones", but that's okay.

It seems that a not-uncommon aid to retrieving elusive tunes is recalling the "B" section (or other sections in multiple-part tunes). That often seems to be a retrieval pattern for me; for some reason the "A" parts will be the most elusive when I temporarily forget tunes. Anyone else notice this, too?

[Roger O'Keeffe]

It seems that a not-uncommon aid to retrieving elusive tunes is recalling the "B" section (or other sections in multiple-part tunes). That often seems to be a retrieval pattern for me; for some reason the "A" parts will be the most elusive when I temporarily forget tunes. Anyone else notice this, too?

Yup. Particularly for what I call "commodity reels", i.e. common-or-garden two-part tunes where the second part has little or nothing to do with the first.

Also for some tunes which trigger "déjà oublié" , i.e. a phenomenon whereby when I try to remember them I above all remember that the last time I tried I had difficulty remembering them and then a mental block sets in (I have the same problem with certain people's names when I meet them ).

[Nanohedron]

Yup. Particularly for what I call "commodity reels", i.e. common-or-garden two-part tunes where the second part has little or nothing to do with the first.

Aha. What a fellow I know calls the "meat-and-potatoes" tunes, I take it. To this day I have to ask beginners to get me started on The Boys of Bluehill, and they look at each other like, "Um...what's up with that?".

Also for some tunes which trigger "déjà oublié" , i.e. a phenomenon whereby when I try to remember them I above all remember that the last time I tried I had difficulty remembering them and then a mental block sets in (I have the same problem with certain people's names when I meet them ).

That is a most byzantine difficulty.

[sbhikes]

Sometimes if I can remember the B part, or just part of it, that does help me remember the whole tune.

I'm afraid even having it memorized isn't all that helpful either, because I'm still using my faulty memory. In other words, just humming it to myself I'll still get the parts of different tunes mixed up into one, or I won't be able to remember the tune at all. I think it's extra hard because there are no words.

Sometimes I think that the decades I spent being a non-musician (I was a musician as a child and then in my 20s-40s not at all -- even forgot how to read music), and being the most passive consumer of music one could be (I barely even listened to any kind of music over the decades -- sometimes not even when driving) I find that listening is NOT the same thing as learning to play.

[Nanohedron]

...I'll still get the parts of different tunes mixed up into one, or I won't be able to remember the tune at all.

Even seasoned players do this, so take heart.

I find that listening is NOT the same thing as learning to play.

That's right. Memorisation - which we have been discussing here - is one thing, and mastering one's instrument is quite another.

[lesl]

Something I didn't see here yet is associating the tune with something.

What I mean is, you can use a memory of where you were practicing it or playing it.. I committed the Flowing Tide to final memory while waiting for the wash to finish, sitting in my car outside the laundromat with a whistle and the windows rolled up.. this sort of thing.

How this relates to getting the chunks of a tune to run properly together I'm not sure. But having in mind a time when you played the tune correctly or heard it correctly can be used as an aid - its one step closer to internalizing it for yourself.

Usually I do just play along to a recording until I can connect all the chunks seamlessly, and then alone to see if I'm certain on my own. If I don't have the certainty yet (certainty, not just all the notes in order) its more playing along.

Another point could be to work out how many times over a section do you personally need, and not to skimp on that. If you need 10x, don't do only 5x and wonder why you lost it.

And don't be fooled by short-term instant recollection. Sometimes you get each section after 3x over and stop there. Only to find its gone 10 minutes later. The short term memory of a tune I think always needs to be reinforced. Nowadays I can learn a tune rather quickly on the spot, but it often still doesn't stick unless I work on it more.

[dyersituations]

And don't be fooled by short-term instant recollection. Sometimes you get each section after 3x over and stop there. Only to find its gone 10 minutes later. The short term memory of a tune I think always needs to be reinforced. Nowadays I can learn a tune rather quickly on the spot, but it often still doesn't stick unless I work on it more.

I agree with that. About a year ago, I decided to finally learn Out on the Ocean, and I did for a day. A week later I forgot about the tune and forgot how the tune went. It wasn't until a couple months ago that I decided to re-learn it, but this time I played it more for a few days to reinforce it.

It helps to play the same new tunes for at least a week everyday to make sure you really know it. In fact, I just played through the 2 tunes I learned this week: The Glass of Beer and Calliope House.

[sbhikes]

I learned two tunes purely by ear recently. Forgot 'em just the same.

[Nanohedron]

I learned two tunes purely by ear recently. Forgot 'em just the same.

That's not unusual. Happens to me, too. Frequently I have to reacquaint myself with the tune at least a couple of times, depending.

But once it's solid, it's solid, and I don't have to depend on the dots.

Although we're getting into the making rather than the remembering, here, in a way, it's not unlike singing/whistling/humming. How many songs do you know that you can duplicate without a moment's thought? Scads. You have all those to memory, so it's really not so different ear-learning tunes without words (although the "words help" argument is a fallacy because most people really can't remember the words anyway, and aside from the fact that you're usually dealing with far greater melodic complexity than in pop tunes; but, hey, Xmas tunes come sorta close). From there it's just a matter of developing the synaptic connection from ears to brain to fingers in much the same way as you already have from ears to brain to your vocal setup. That had to be developed, too. It just seems as automatic as breathing, now.

[sbhikes]

I learned two tunes purely by ear recently. Forgot 'em just the same.

That's not unusual. Happens to me, too. Frequently I have to reacquaint myself with the tune at least a couple of times, depending.

But once it's solid, it's solid, and I don't have to depend on the dots.

Although we're getting into the making rather than the remembering, here, in a way, it's not unlike singing/whistling/humming. How many songs do you know that you can duplicate without a moment's thought? Scads. You have all those to memory, so it's really not so different ear-learning tunes without words (although the "words help" argument is a fallacy because most people really can't remember the words anyway, and aside from the fact that you're usually dealing with far greater melodic complexity than in pop tunes; but, hey, Xmas tunes come sorta close). From there it's just a matter of developing the synaptic connection from ears to brain to fingers in much the same way as you already have from ears to brain to your vocal setup. That had to be developed, too. It just seems as automatic as breathing, now.

Hey you solved it! I can't remember hardly any tunes of any genre. Sure there's a few here and there, but by and large, I can recall little. That's why I never buy any CDs from the music shop. Heck, I can't even remember the names of the bands I like. It's a musical brain disorder then!

[Nanohedron]

I learned two tunes purely by ear recently. Forgot 'em just the same.

That's not unusual. Happens to me, too. Frequently I have to reacquaint myself with the tune at least a couple of times, depending.

But once it's solid, it's solid, and I don't have to depend on the dots.

Although we're getting into the making rather than the remembering, here, in a way, it's not unlike singing/whistling/humming. How many songs do you know that you can duplicate without a moment's thought? Scads. You have all those to memory, so it's really not so different ear-learning tunes without words (although the "words help" argument is a fallacy because most people really can't remember the words anyway, and aside from the fact that you're usually dealing with far greater melodic complexity than in pop tunes; but, hey, Xmas tunes come sorta close). From there it's just a matter of developing the synaptic connection from ears to brain to fingers in much the same way as you already have from ears to brain to your vocal setup. That had to be developed, too. It just seems as automatic as breathing, now.

Hey you solved it! I can't remember hardly any tunes of any genre. Sure there's a few here and there, but by and large, I can recall little. That's why I never buy any CDs from the music shop. Heck, I can't even remember the names of the bands I like. It's a musical brain disorder then!

Funny.

Sure, it might be more difficult for some than others, but you can't deny you have a memory. I dunno, I still think it's just a matter of working at it.

[Gordon]

One thing I think is important to playing memory is muscle memory, which is quite different frm mental memory. There are tunes I'll play in session, while wondering in the back of my head 'what tune is this, and how do I know it? My fingers seem to know it..."
I think what happens when you play tunes a lot is that both your mind and fingers eventually learn the tune, which is very different from someone asking, hey, do you know this one, and the name doesn't even ring a bell. But you do know it.
Tunes you play regularly because you really like them, know their titles (or at least the titles you know it by), these are always right in the foreground, along with the tunes you're currently working on. Then there is the foggy stuff you haven't played for years. I think it's a good idea to go back, every so often, and play old familiar tunes again, or listen to whatever source you used in the first place, and all these old tunes are new again. I've started playing some tunes recently I hadn't in years, and discovered all sorts of cool things about them I didn't realize before. This is also because I'd grown since them, but the tunes themselves were registered somewhere in my brain and, in some ways more importantly, my fingers seemed to remember them.
As for confusing a B part with a different A part -- it happens. I also believe that many tunes were written this way -- some multi part tunes that added 3rd and 4th parts that really are identical to other tune parts -- some foggy mind a century ago, or a few decades ago, slapped them together and others learned them that way...
What can you do?

Gordon

[Roger O'Keeffe]

I've had the slightly spooky experience of playing a chanter that I hadn't played for years and finding that I began to play tunes that I also hadn't played for years but which evidently some part of the brain/muscle combination associated with that particular chanter.

[talasiga]

..........
Hey you solved it! I can't remember hardly any tunes of any genre. Sure there's a few here and there, but by and large, I can recall little. That's why I never buy any CDs from the music shop. Heck, I can't even remember the names of the bands I like. It's a musical brain disorder then!

I am a little bit like you. I find it helps me if I put things in cupboards in my head organised by scale type and rhythm and only learning one item that falls in any grid at a time, learning it deeply or elementally in terms of Martin Milner's post. I liked Martin's post and feel somewhat vindicated and encouraged by it.

I am a beginner in dance ITM playing but not a beginner in listening to it or accompanying slow songs.

You have started a lovely topic Diane
perfumed with honesty.










POSTSCRIPT QUOTE:-

Plenty of good tips here - just an idea, are you trying to learn them too precisely?

Most tunes are a series of important notes, connected by a string of less important notes. If you get the important ones right (say in a reel, the first and fifth quaver in each bar), the rest follow. This is one reason why there are so many variations possible in Irish music.

Also, how do you try to learn? Do you string together phrases, or just try to play the whole A or B part in one lump? Tunes break down into phrases (sometimes like a call and refrain) and if you get the phrasing right, not only will it sound better but it'll hold together better in your memory.

I forget who said it, but it's often said you should never try to play a tune you don't already know by heart. i.e. be able to sing, lip-whistle or hear it in your head from memory before picking up your instrument.

That way you've got past the memory bit, and now you're just interpreting the tune.