Separating notes of the same pitch

[awildman]

Hi there, everybody. I've been fooling around with the flute the last few days. Having a hard time getting into the whistle for some reason, but I really like the flute. Normally I play fiddle(badly) and some things in ITM transfer over from the fiddle pretty nicely, but I'm having trouble with some of the ornaments. Specifically the cut and what I've come to call the tap. Not the execution, but the placement, especially in context with certain passages.

For instance, in Out On The Ocean, the setting I know starts with DBB B2. I'm having trouble getting the three B's in a row to not sound repetitious. In a passage like that, how would those notes get separated? On fiddle, I would bow each of the first two B's separately and then cut to separate the last one. What works well on the flute for those type of passages, especially for a beginner? I know that a different setting would work better in a lot of situations, but I'm pretty clueless about such things still.

I know this is a pretty generic question, but I see quite a few tunes where there are three notes in a row. Two notes together aren't too bad, but the third one needs something different, in my opinion. Suggestions?

[s1m0n]

The third flute articulation (along with cuts & 'taps') is the glottal stop--stopping the airstream back in your throat, not with your tongue, the way classical flute and recorder players do. Use this at the beginning of longer phrases. The effect is similar to a breath, but you don't drop any notes.

[Sylvester]

I'd say you need a roll for the three B's. First, a brief introduction:

O = open Hole
X= closed Hole
XXX XXX = Flute with six holes closed (from left to right in case you are right handed)

You got it?
Then you can try to do this to separate the B's:

XOO OOO
OOO OOO
XOO OOO
XXO OOO
XOO OOO

It works reasonably similar with other holes. At first it sounds crap, later on it'll start to sound better if you work on it. Patience.

Rgds
Rafa

[gododdin]

If you haven't already seen it, have a look at this:

http://www.rogermillington.com/siamsa/b ... bits1.html

Pretty good advice on rolls, particularly the "dah-blah-blah" method.

It's for whistle, but applies pretty much to flute as well.

[Flutered]

Cuts and glottal stops as above but you can also drop notes to effect (and take a breath of air). In your example play D2B BAG etc. with a cut or breath stop to lift B on the beat. I think that tunes are often played slightly differently in terms of phrasing according to the strengths/ limitations of the instrument they're played on - so you might hear it in your head one way on the fiddle and slightly diff. for flute etc.

[awildman]

The third flute articulation (along with cuts & 'taps') is the glottal stop--stopping the airstream back in your throat, not with your tongue, the way classical flute and recorder players do. Use this at the beginning of longer phrases. The effect is similar to a breath, but you don't drop any notes.

Yes, that is what I have been doing so far, especially in jigs. Much quicker so far than my fingers. Still working on that, though.

Thanks for the diagram, Rafa. That helps immensely. My question would be, because the three B's would cross an invisible bar-line, and I want to accent the third B, would this be the best way to do that?

On a related note, is there a flute equivalent of a bowed triplet? (3EEE etc? I've been trying to substitute a roll, which is ok, but I've got it ingrained somehow that certain tunes need a bowed triplet. Fiddle influence, no doubt.

[awildman]

I think that tunes are often played slightly differently in terms of phrasing according to the strengths/ limitations of the instrument they're played on - so you might hear it in your head one way on the fiddle and slightly diff. for flute etc.

Definitely. Which is why I'm asking for advice. I've got the fiddle stuck in my head. And hands.

[Flutered]

In your example, personally I'd be inclined to play D2B BAG with a cut on the second B. If for no better reason than it affords a breathing spot when coming back into the tune again. I like to finish parts by playing BGF GFE D2B BAG which swoops down nicely to come back up!

But playing DBB B2G or DBB BAG, I'd tend to use glottal coughs or stops or whatever you want to call them to separate the B's in DBB with a cut on the following B to lift it. That gives the effect I like, separates the notes of same value but puts more emphasis on the 'important' B.

Then again, some play this tune with an opening roll on B i.e. B3~ BAG.

[Sylvester]

Thanks for the diagram, Rafa. That helps immensely. My question would be, because the three B's would cross an invisible bar-line, and I want to accent the third B, would this be the best way to do that?

You're most welcome. I think you could use glottal stop or tongueing to stress the last B. There are different approaches for stress and articulation and I'm expert at none of them. My only advice is listen as much solo flute players recordings as you can to find your way.

Rgds
Rafa

[Ro3b]

DB(tongue)B (cut)BAG.

My rule in jigs is cuts and/or taps on the downbeat, tongues and/or glottals elsewhere. That keeps the groove swinging the way it should.

[awildman]

Thanks, Rob. That is a perfect answer, for me at least. BTW, I found the articulation section of your website very helpful. A lot of it is still above my abilities, but one step at a time, right?

As for cutting on the beat, that's what i prefer with fiddle as well. This also allows a fiddler to slur into the beat, which is an essential technique in Irish fiddle music, in my opinion.

[jemtheflute]

OK, somewhat belatedly (I had to find time to record onto minidisc, get it tolerably right, then transfer to computer, upload.....) here's my take on Out On The Ocean. I thought this slo-mo approach might be more helpful and less time consuming/mind boggling than trying to explain verbally. Of course, I don't necessarily play it the same all the time, so this is just one version of my way of approaching this tune..... I don't seem to use true taps very much in this particular tune, other than in the context of rolls, though there are some places where they could be used instead of cuts. (I don't count a portamento slur up into a note as a true tap.) This isn't deliberately considered, just the way my repertory of ornamentational habits applies itself semi-subconsciously to this tune! Aaaaargh. Did I really just write that? Well, you'll just have to lump it! I think it does actually make sense!

BTW, I learnt this version from the playing of Tony Linnane, Noel Hill and (whisper) Matt Molloy on Planxty's The Woman I loved So Well album (possibly their best?). It uses 1st and 2nd time versions of the B music - bit nicer than the "standard" setting which usually just repeats what is here the 2nd time version.

http://www.box.net/shared/sikpq8ftbg - slow rendition
http://www.box.net/shared/qby5kb4vz8 - normal speed rendition

Played on my c1843 Rudall & Rose #4683 (Patent Head)

I hope friend cocusflute will now be appeased, on my account at least!!!!!
Any feedback will be appreciated......

[Eldarion]

Hi there, since you asked for feedback and no one ventured lemme have a go...

The most striking thing about your jig is that your are consistantly emphasizing by breath pulse, the first note of each "jig triplet". It sounds contrived and is not really how jigs are played. Another thing that sticks out is how you are doing a compressed B roll in the starting motifs of part A. Its spoiling the rhythm and phrasing of the jig. Even a simple glotalled repeated B would have served the tune better there.

On the upside I think your tone has character and a rawness which I think is nice.

I think what you need to do is to listen to more musicians with good phrasing, and listen to how the greats play their jigs. You need to figure this out for yourself I think, theres no use having someone tell you to lengthen this note or emphasize that one because it would at the end of the day be contrived and less intuitive on the long run. You should, if just for educational purposes, make sure you listen to unaccompanied music often because a lot of accompaniment (guitar especially) has a way of ironing out the rhythmic intricacies of the music and obscuring phrasing. Jigs IMO are one of the most rhymically interesting dance tune forms in Irish music and are not as direct as they appear to be. Good luck and have fun..

[jemtheflute]

Thanks for the feedback, Eldarion. Undoubtedly I always need to listen more to "the Greats" - though I do listen regularly to Matt Molloy and Jean-Michel Veillon especially, and to a lesser extent to people like Harry, Conal O'Grada, Cathal McConnell, Mike McGoldrick, Kevin Crawford etc. etc. Of course, I don't always uncritically like everything they do, or want totally to emulate them even if I could! Quite a few of my favourite recordings from these people are not heavily accompanied. I'm also influenced by Liam O'Flynn especially from the Planxty albums, and many other players on other instruments. I don't try to sound like any of them, though. I take in what I hear generally, and even if I directly learn a tune or set from a recording, I never try to play it exactly like the original recording, or to sound like any particular player stylistically. I don't try to play any particular regional Irish style either- I don't have sufficient exposure to or knowledge about those to know where to begin. I agree about being intuitive. I also know that it would do me a world of good to record and listen back to myself far more than I ever get around to.
You are probably right about overdoing the breath pulse thing, though I don't do it twice a bar as you imply! Nor always the same in all jigs. And I have also previously received compliments (elsewhere) for playing with a strong rhythm. I've been aware of it somewhat myself - it developed partly as a result of spending nearly two years as (frequently) the sole musician for a party of dancers - trying to make enough sound (unamplified) with a strong-enough pulse over feet in a medium sized church hall. Also from struggling against poor time-keeping (especially in jigs!!!) by certain players at my local regular session! It's useful to be able to do, but like most things, irritating if it becomes pervasive. We'll just have to disagree about the B rolls in the A part though. I like the slightly syncopating effect they have, even if it ain't someone's idea of pure trad, whatever and where-ever that may be.

Still-and-all, there's always so much more to learn and no end to improvement - and constructive criticism is appreciated, by me at least.