statement about the English

[alurker]

Thank you for that talasiga. It is clear to me now that there are many people from many different ethnic groups who may or may not be British citizens who now live or were born in London who may or may not consider themselves to be English but are certainly proud of being British nationality. I'm sure that there was a point there somewhere.

I, myself used to be a British subject on account of being born in a Colony at the time. British, mind you, without being English, Irish, Scottish, Welsh, Manx or Cornish.

Just to be clear I, myself am Irish on account of being born in Ireland. Irish, mind you, without being Norwegian, Nigerian, Brazilian, Icelandic or British.

[talasiga]

.....
Just to be clear I, myself am Irish on account of being born in Ireland. Irish, mind you, without being Norwegian, Nigerian, Brazilian, Icelandic or British.

You're very lucky person.
People of aboriginal (first nation) ethnicity BORN in AUSTRALIA were not deemed Australian Citizens until the constitutional rerendum in the late 60's accepted them.

[alurker]

Yes I was surprised recently when I heard of the 40-year commerations of the referendum. Only 40 years! It was late in coming but at least somewhat gratifying to read that 90.7% of Australian voters recorded a 'yes' vote.

[djm]

The six counties of the north weren't divided from the rest until 1921, a dozen years after Synge's 1909 death. As a legal entity then, 'Northern Ireland' didn't exist at any time during Synge's lifetime.

This is very incorrect. As squirrelly as they are, reading any of the ancient myths/legends of Ireland clearly demonstrates that Ulster always went its own way, and was always at odds with the other regions. In the times of Lewis and Synge, NI was already culturally and politically separate and distinct from its southern neighbours for much of its population.

djm

[talasiga]

...... As squirrelly as they are, reading any of the ancient myths/legends of Ireland clearly demonstrates that Ulster always went its own way, and was always at odds with the other regions. In the times of Lewis and Synge, NI was already culturally and politically separate and distinct from its southern neighbours for much of its population.

Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan counties are not in NI.

[s1m0n]

As a legal entity then, 'Northern Ireland' didn't exist at any time during Synge's lifetime.

This is very incorrect.

Your objection is unrelated to my point, and your assertion ("this is incorrect) is false.

[alurker]

We are getting into a line drawing exercise here and that is always a difficult thing to do with Ireland and particularly in relation to Irish writers. There were of course cultural differences in Ireland between Protestants and Catholic, 'Northerners' and 'Southerners', rich and poor before 1921. However poor southern Church of Ireland Protestants may have been culturally closer to poor southern Catholics than they were to rich northern Presbyterians.

It is simply incorrect to say that pre-1921 Irish Protestants, even those from the ruling classes, were "never Irish" as we had earlier in this thread. Many of the great early Irish nationalists were themselves Protestant. Sean O Casey who wrote 'The Plough and the Stars' is a case in point. He was a member of the Church of Ireland and was a leading figure in the Irish republican movement and became General Secretary of the Irish Citizen Army. He even played the pipes!

[trill]

This passage is ironic (well, the entire book is, actually--isn't it supposed to be letters from a devil?). The author means the oppostie of what the devils say.

What Lewis is saying is that 'their bark is worse than their bite', or maybe that the english cover their essential kindness with bluster.

That's exactly the point. From the demon's point of view, the English saying "Torture is too good for my enemies," is absolutely excellent in every way. The trouble comes when, confronted with said enemies disarmed and in person, the English person's essential mercy and kindness comes through, despite the tough talk.

I suspect Lewis thought this was a somewhat admirable trait--talking tough, fighting tough, but remaining basically a kind and compassionate person underneath. To a demon, though, this sort of hypocrisy would be totally unacceptable.

Clear as muck?

Tom

Minimal muck that I can see. I heartily agree with WyoBadger's summary.

[jbarter]

There are a lot of Irish people who have British citizenship and passports

Not quite right there Talasiga. It's United Kingdom citizenship and passports being the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

[djm]

Interesting related <A HREF="http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ ... home">news article here</A>. It seems that:

increasing numbers of people identify themselves as English, Welsh, Scottish or Irish rather than British

djm

[buddhu]

Heavens, I never realised what a jumbled perception the rest of the world has about Britain and Ireland...

Visitors to this group of shores are advised that most of the above would be disputed in some parts of these islands - not just by "the English".

A lot of my Cornish friends would not be outraged by being considered as a nationality in their own right... just baffled. Not all Cornishmen and women are rampant separatists (although my wife is, at heart, and so would I be if I were Cornish!).

Many of them are totally unfamiliar and apathetic about the notion of a Cornish Nation, and have never sung a verse of 'Trelawny' in their lives.

Also (and I appreciate that Tal(asiga) emphasised 'MAY'), I have friends of Punjabi and Gujurati Indian parentage who definitely consider themselves English, and others with the same origins who consider themselves Scottish - especially when the football's on.

[jbarter]

Interesting related <A HREF="http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ ... home">news article here</A>. It seems that:

increasing numbers of people identify themselves as English, Welsh, Scottish or Irish rather than British

djm

Also in that article

The design of the national flag — proper name the Union Flag — traces from the early 17th century when King James VI of Scotland ascended to the English throne as King James I.

Freedom for the English. Throw off the yoke of the tyrannous invading Scots. Back home ye go Wee Gordy.

See ya later. I'm just off to compose a few English rebel songs.

[djm]

Freedom for the English. Throw off the yoke of the tyrannous invading Scots. Back home ye go Wee Gordy.

Excellent!

Where's Chrisoff?

djm

[buddhu]

He's behind you...

[Cynth]

There are a lot of Irish people who have British citizenship and passports

Not quite right there Talasiga. It's United Kingdom citizenship and passports being the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

As buddhu said, a lot of the rest of the world is confused about the UK and other terms. I've been trying to straighten it out for myself, and I've made some progress and I have a question. I'm definitely NOT debating anything.

Is it then just the people living on the island of Great Britain who would be considered British according to a textbook, say? I understand that those people would also often refer to themselves as English, Welsh, Scottish, or whatever constituent country they belong to. I had thought that all citizens of United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland would be considered to be British according to a textbook, even if in practice people prefer to just state their country of origin. I was thinking that the word "British" was the adjective that was used to denote citizenship in the UK. But now I am wondering. How would a person from Northern Ireland describe his citizenship? "I have a ________ passport." What word would be used to fill in the blank? I'm not sure if I've described my confusion. I understand that many people would not want to call themselves British because that word does seem to be associated with the English in the minds of many other people in the world who don't understand the terms (I am just saying some people, I am not one, would not want to be thought to be English), but I'm just wondering what the proper use of the term British is----maybe according to a textbook and also how it is used by real people.