Copley/Olwell keyless question

Jim_B1 · Post by **Jim_B1** » Mon Oct 28, 2002 8:45 am

This is something that may be looking to order next year sometime (maybe in the may or June timeframe) but I figured I'd broach the question now. As a beginner, which would be the better way to go. Which would be the one that would grow with me as I get better? I've read though a lot of posts here and at a few other boards and I'm reasonably sure it will be one of these two. I've read everything I could find on the Olwell and Copley flutes and would be looking for a keyless in blackwood. The wait is a small issue with the Olwell being 6 - 8 months longer from what I've read and the cost being about a $400 difference in Copley's favor. I know this is a tough question but if it was for yourself, would you go for the Copley or the Olwell? I'm figuring on getting the best up front rather than getting something less expensive then having to complain because I want something better

I think what I'm asking is: Is the Olwell $400 better than the Copley and worth the extra 6 month wait? I have time to make this decision though so I figured I'd start gathering info from people who have or have played them to help me make this decision. BTW.. Bill Ochs, my teacher is very big on Patrick Olwell's work so that's a big endorsement to me but I figure the more information I have about them, the better I can make my choice.
Thanks for your help everyone.

Loren · Post by **Loren** » Mon Oct 28, 2002 9:00 am

Having owned/played both, here's my $.02

We don't know what the wait for a Copley will be by the time you order, but if we go by the way things are at the moment, then you're going to wait about a year longer for the Olwell than a Copley - Patrick's waiting list, based on people who have recently recieved flutes or are still waiting, seems to be running 16+ months at the moment.

With that in mind, my suggestion would be to order both the Copley and Olwell. The Copley is much easier to play, and will serve you well until the Olwell arrives, at which point you can sell the Copley for what you paid, or perhaps more - you certainly won't lose money on it.

Loren

Jim_B1 · Post by **Jim_B1** » Mon Oct 28, 2002 1:57 pm

Hi Loren,
Thanks for the response. In a perfect world, getting both then selling one would be great. In my world however, I have to explain to my wife what I'm doing with $1000 + or - and she doesn't really like things that sound like a scheme. Guess I've pulled that too many times in the past

Anyway, the whole reason I'm asking the question is to get around having to order one thing only to turn around and order another. If my decision is the Olwell and the wait is 16 months, I may just stick with the bamboo ones while I wait or maybe a Dixon 3pc for $200. I can't see getting a $800 flute while waiting for a $1200 flute. Financially it's tough to justify. On the other hand, if I go with the Copley and a 6 month wait I won't bother with the intermediate Dixon 3pc or whatever.

However, I think you've inadvertantly told me what you think anyway since you did get rid of the Copley in favor of the Olwell.

Maybe that's the question I should ask you: Why did you choose the Olwell over the Copley? Was there some quantifible advantage in the Olwell over the Copley? Workmanship, tone, service, resale value, ect? Was it a more comfortable flute for you physically? Sorry about all the questions but it's just a tough call and I'd like to get the most info possible ahead of time so I can make the right choice.

I really don't think either is a wrong choice though by everyone's posts on the board, I think I would probably be infinately happy with either one though I'm still leaning towards the Olwell but I guess I'm trying to figure out exactly why. I hate it when I get a sub-conscious decision in my head and can't determine why it's there

Thanks again
-Jim

Gordon · Post by **Gordon** » Mon Oct 28, 2002 3:46 pm

I suppose this is only my 2 cents worth, but, while Olwell makes a great flute for some (I have no experience with Copley), there are many, many other great flutes out there for far less money, far less wait and -- IMHO -- if not better, then of equal, if different, caliber. Among these are makers like Hamilton and Cotter, both of which I've enjoyed playing over the Olwell's I've tried. Skip Healy's are a bit unique, and not inexpensive (his keyless is on $ par, I think, with Olwell), a completely different feel, but you'll get his keyless in something like 2 months, and it's a very remarkable flute, soundwise.
This is NOT to say, again, that Olwells are not great flutes, but every player goes for different sounds, different feels, etc.. I guess my point, then, is that no one good maker's instruments can be held up to some lofty "it's the best" standard, unless the other makers are substandard by themselves.
To think that, you are setting yourself up to a bit of a disappointment, as a good flute is a good flute, and the rest is up to you.

JessieK · Post by **JessieK** » Mon Oct 28, 2002 3:49 pm

Gordon, you have stated the politically correct thing. That said, an Olwell is the best flute on the planet, hands down.

Jim_B1 · Post by **Jim_B1** » Mon Oct 28, 2002 4:41 pm

On 2002-10-28 16:46, Gordon wrote:
I suppose this is only my 2 cents worth, but, while Olwell makes a great flute for some (I have no experience with Copley), there are many, many other great flutes out there for far less money, far less wait and -- IMHO -- if not better, then of equal, if different, caliber. Among these are makers like Hamilton and Cotter, both of which I've enjoyed playing over the Olwell's I've tried. Skip Healy's are a bit unique, and not inexpensive (his keyless is on $ par, I think, with Olwell), a completely different feel, but you'll get his keyless in something like 2 months, and it's a very remarkable flute, soundwise.
This is NOT to say, again, that Olwells are not great flutes, but every player goes for different sounds, different feels, etc.. I guess my point, then, is that no one good maker's instruments can be held up to some lofty "it's the best" standard, unless the other makers are substandard by themselves.
To think that, you are setting yourself up to a bit of a disappointment, as a good flute is a good flute, and the rest is up to you.

Hi Gordon,
I actually have thought about all the other makers including Hamilton, Healy and Cotter. There are a few benefits to me with Copley and Olwell in that I can drive to talk to them over a weekend if I have to. I can drive to speak to Skip Healy too but from what I gather from many reviews and conversations on this board and others, while his flutes may be fantastic instruments, they are not the easiest to play for a beginner to intermediate. As far as the they are all great thing, that may well be true but in the end you just have to make the best decision based on the information at hand and these two seem to be the ones whose work most appeals to me. Obviously that may change as I learn more and get better but for now, these are the two I'm going to focus on.
Thanks
-Jim

Thanks
-Jim

DanD · Post by **DanD** » Mon Oct 28, 2002 5:03 pm

I can't agree with JessieK, cause I haven't played an Olwell.

But, I have played a Copley for over a year now, and there is a ton of potential in this flute that I haven't tapped. IMHO, you won't outgrow the Copley for many years. By then you'll have enough experience to know what you're looking for in a top of the line flute (And I'm not conviced that the Copley isn't up there with them!). I also found it easier to get the spouse to agree to new instruments when I've played the old ones for a while and shown some commitment.
Good Luck!

Loren · Post by **Loren** » Mon Oct 28, 2002 6:56 pm

Jim,

Gordon makes good points, and I firmly believe that there are quite a number of really wonderful flutes out there, each suiting a different player's tastes.

To answer your question of me: I only sold the Copley because I needed the money to pay for the Olwell once that was ready. I would dearly have liked to kept the Copley, but I wanted a Cocus Olwell more, and something had to give, so.....

I wouldn't like to say any one flute is better than another, at least among the top makers out there. I do think you are wise to consider flutes produced by makers close to you, and (having owned them all at one point or another) I firmly believe you could be quite happy with an Olwell, Copley, or Healy. In fact, I'd suggest that if it's at all possible, you take trips to visit each of those gentleman and actually try their flutes - this would answer your questions better than any advice you get here.

By the way, I wouldn't be scared away from Skip's flutes just because I and few others have found them difficult as beginners - Skip makes fabulous instruments, and is quite willing to work with his customers to help meet their needs. Skip's flutes are wonderful and unique, perfect for some people, not for others, just like all the rest in that regard.

In the end, I really can't answer your question I suppose.......

Loren

Gordon · Post by **Gordon** » Mon Oct 28, 2002 7:28 pm

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon, you have stated the politically correct thing. That said, an Olwell is the best flute on the planet, hands down.<<

Actually, Jessie, I think I said what I said against the flow of the thread, not as a politically correct ideology. I don't think Olwell's -- as good as I recognize they are -- are in any shape or form, the best flutes on the planet. I take this position not because I dislike them, but because I think statements like yours are misleading to those looking for -- well -- the best flute on the planet. There isn't such a beast, it isn't made, and it's foolish and misleading to newbies to give any flute or maker that title. This harkens back to the Rudall/Olwell thread - the antique gems vs. a legitimate modern gem.
But Olwell's flutes have a specific sound and feel (varying, like all flutes, a bit from flute to flute) that you either love or don't. If you don't, that doesn't make it a bad flute, but it does make it not a flute for you. My Hamilton is not the perfect flute either, but I prefer it over the Olwells I've played.
That said, Jim's reasons for selecting either an Olwell or a Copley is the best argument I've heard on this topic, his living near enough to them to visit the shop. His ability to try out flutes before purchase and talk with the maker face to face is a major plus -- I only had a fleeting experience with a Hamilton before I ordered one, and it is only through luck (and a good maker/flute who answered all my questions, via email) that I was happy with it. Most makers are very approachable and helpful, but being able to really talk out what you want is immeasurable.

Gordon · Post by **Gordon** » Mon Oct 28, 2002 7:29 pm

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon, you have stated the politically correct thing. That said, an Olwell is the best flute on the planet, hands down.<<

Actually, Jessie, I think I said what I said against the flow of the thread, not as a politically correct ideology. I don't think Olwell's -- as good as I recognize they are -- are in any shape or form, the best flutes on the planet. I take this position not because I dislike them, but because I think statements like yours are misleading to those looking for -- well -- the best flute on the planet. There isn't such a beast, it isn't made, and it's foolish and misleading to newbies to give any flute or maker that title. This harkens back to the Rudall/Olwell thread - the antique gems vs. a legitimate modern gem.
But Olwell's flutes have a specific sound and feel (varying, like all flutes, a bit from flute to flute) that you either love or don't. If you don't, that doesn't make it a bad flute, but it does make it not a flute for you. My Hamilton is not the perfect flute either, but I prefer it over the Olwells I've played.
That said, Jim's reasons for selecting either an Olwell or a Copley is the best argument I've heard on this topic, his living near enough to them to visit the shop. His ability to try out flutes before purchase and talk with the maker face to face is a major plus -- I only had a fleeting experience with a Hamilton before I ordered one, and it is only through luck (and a good maker/flute who answered all my questions, via email) that I was happy with it. Most makers are very approachable and helpful, but being able to really talk out what you want is immeasurable.

Gordon · Post by **Gordon** » Mon Oct 28, 2002 7:32 pm

Oops!! Posted twice. Guess I meant what I said!

Whistlin'Dixie · Post by **Whistlin'Dixie** » Mon Oct 28, 2002 8:00 pm

On 2002-10-28 19:56, Loren wrote:

I firmly believe that there are quite a number of really wonderful flutes out there, each suiting a different player's tastes.

To answer your question of me: I only sold the Copley because I needed the money to pay for the Olwell once that was ready. I would dearly have liked to kept the Copley, but I wanted a Cocus Olwell more, and something had to give, so.....
Loren

Hi All: Let me come forward as the (as if you didn't already know) proud, totally satisfied owner of Loren's Copley flute ~ Here's why ....

I wanted a simple keyless flute. I didn't need one in any great hurry. I can play tunes on my silver flute, and I could have gotten myself on a (long) waiting list, if that is what I chose to do. I lurked for a long time, made a decision, and bought the Copley because:
a. I trusted Loren's judgement, based on the advice he has shared with everyone for so many years
b. He has not been quiet about stating that although he LOVES his new Olwell flute, he STILL wishes he had been able to keep the Copley (and would have if he hadn't needed the money)
c. "MY" Copley makes ME, PERSONALLY, sound EXACTLY the way I want to sound. It has a tremendous capacity for variation in tone, which has been well-described by Loren in previous posts. It doesn't hurt, nor does it bother me, that it is easy for me to play

d. In my opinion, my Copley is the BEST flute for ME to be playing. I say that in the context that I already love it. I may never be able to play anywhere near as well as the great flute players out there, but I can satisfy myself that I can reproduce the "sounds" that I like best, on MY flute (the rich reedy tones, the sweet light notes, those deep dark D's, that "honk").
e. I think it's best to say, that you should try the flutes you are interested in, and purchase the BEST flute for YOU.
f. Does it bother me that the Copley I have is used? Not at all. What am I gonna do when the day comes that I just HAVE TO have another flute?!?!? Hey Dave, got any Cocus wood?

Mary

Jim_B1 · Post by **Jim_B1** » Mon Oct 28, 2002 8:32 pm

hmm... I actually like what I've seen on Skip Healy's web site but was a little concerned about the issues that people brought up on other threads (sharper edged holes than some other makers, need a strong embousure, etc) and I really haven't seen the sterling reports like I have on the Copley and Olwell but again, that may just be a matter of more people with Olwell and Copley flutes posting. Also his prices are in the range of Olwell for the higher end stuff and well above Copley. However, he's actually the closest of the three to get to (about a 3 hour drive, I can be there and back on a Sat with no problem) so I could take a run up there and talk about it when the time comes. I think I'm going to have to plan some road trips in the spring. Thanks for all the ideas and help everyone. This is why I wanted to start thinking about it even though I'm nowhere near ready to go buy one yet. Boy nothing's ever easy is it?

Thanks again,

Jim_B1 · Post by **Jim_B1** » Mon Oct 28, 2002 8:37 pm

On 2002-10-28 21:00, Whistlin'Dixie wrote:
Hi All: Let me come forward as the (as if you didn't already know) proud, totally satisfied owner of Loren's Copley flute ~ Here's why ....

I wanted a simple keyless flute. I didn't need one in any great hurry. I can play tunes on my silver flute, and I could have gotten myself on a (long) waiting list, if that is what I chose to do. I lurked for a long time, made a decision, and bought the Copley because:
a. I trusted Loren's judgement, based on the advice he has shared with everyone for so many years
b. He has not been quiet about stating that although he LOVES his new Olwell flute, he STILL wishes he had been able to keep the Copley (and would have if he hadn't needed the money)
c. "MY" Copley makes ME, PERSONALLY, sound EXACTLY the way I want to sound. It has a tremendous capacity for variation in tone, which has been well-described by Loren in previous posts. It doesn't hurt, nor does it bother me, that it is easy for me to play
d. In my opinion, my Copley is the BEST flute for ME to be playing. I say that in the context that I already love it. I may never be able to play anywhere near as well as the great flute players out there, but I can satisfy myself that I can reproduce the "sounds" that I like best, on MY flute (the rich reedy tones, the sweet light notes, those deep dark D's, that "honk").
e. I think it's best to say, that you should try the flutes you are interested in, and purchase the BEST flute for YOU.
f. Does it bother me that the Copley I have is used? Not at all. What am I gonna do when the day comes that I just HAVE TO have another flute?!?!? Hey Dave, got any Cocus wood?
Mary

Now this makes sense! It sounds like what you want it to sound like, was available, and it fits to the way you play. That's the sort of stuff I want to hear about. I've noticed that more people rave about the Copley flutes here than any other which is why it's on my short list.
Thanks Mary!

RobBBQ · Post by **RobBBQ** » Mon Oct 28, 2002 8:39 pm

Buy a LEHART! Best flute for the money hands down. 6 keys for about $850 and a wait of about a year.