C natural question

[sbhikes]

I'm loving my new flute. It's quite a challenge, but the beauty and the intimacy of playing a flute vs a whistle makes up for it. It's like the flute becomes you, or speaks from you, whereas to me, the whistle, well, just toots.

Anyway, on to my question.

I guess C natural is different on the flute and whistle. Arrgh. Now I gotta unlearn.

Anyway, C natural seems kind of difficult to do sometimes. If you go from high D to C natural to B and back to C natural it's like a finger twister. Just so I understand, this is what I understand is C natural:

OXOXXX

Did I get it right? Do you cheat when you play certain tunes? Is there a cheat? Or does this fingering just become natural eventually, so to speak?

[crookedtune]

There are lots of threads about this.

I use OXX000 or OXXOXX usually. You should look at all the options and figure out what works best for you, and on your particular flute.

[Cork]

I'm loving my new flute. It's quite a challenge, but the beauty and the intimacy of playing a flute vs a whistle makes up for it. It's like the flute becomes you, or speaks from you...

C natural:

OXOXXX...

Frankly, it is a very intimate experience. Enjoy!

Flutes can vary in their fingering, but for C natural try: OXX OOO , which may need to be "humored" just a bit, to get it in tune.

[Denny]

CB FF wasn't it?

OXO XXX for C nat
XOX XXX for low Bb
XOX OOO for high Bb

[Gabriel]

On my Reviol flute, OXXOOO works good (or the key of course), on my other flute, OXXXOX is better. My teacher uses OXOXXX on his Aebi.

Depends mostly on the flute.

[dessinchat]

Yes, Casey told me to use 0X0 XXX for the natural C of the upper octave but I use simply 0XX 000 for the C nat of the lower octave. It seems that it works ...

[sbhikes]

Yes, Casey told me to use 0X0 XXX for the natural C of the upper octave but I use simply 0XX 000 for the C nat of the lower octave. It seems that it works ...

Well, 0X0 XXX sounds best to me on the lower octave as well. But I don't have perfect pitch or anything. It just sounds clearer. But I'm used to 0XX 000. I don't know, should I maintain my poor-sounding fingering or learn the new one? It's so hard to learn things new again after you've learned them once.

[Cork]

Well, 0X0 XXX sounds best to me on the lower octave as well. But I don't have perfect pitch or anything. It just sounds clearer. But I'm used to 0XX 000. I don't know, should I maintain my poor-sounding fingering or learn the new one?...

At the risk of opening a can of worms here, and therefore as the really, really short story, the fingering for C natural is known as a cross fingering, or a cross fingered note, and this kind of note is well known for a certain lack of tonal clarity, which in essence cannot be avoided on a simple system flute.

The basic approach is to get the cross fingered note in tune, first and foremost, while turning a deaf ear to the tonal quality.

[chas]

On the Baroque flute it's important to learn a few different fingerings for the cross-fingered notes. Heck, even some of the non-crossfingered notes. On the Irish flute, you might's well learn some different Cnats and Csharps. In slow, easy passages use those fingerings that are clearest and/or most in-tune. In faster tunes, nobody will notice if a note is off by a few cents. Here are a few, not all will work on every flute:

Lower octave Cnat:

OXX OOO
OXO XXX
OXO OOO
OXX OXX
OXX XOX

Upper octave Cnat:

OXO XXX
OXO OOO
OXO XXO

Upper octave C#:

OXX XOO
OOO XXX
OOO OOO

The latter is usually really out of tune on most flutes.

[jemtheflute]

I'd pretty much second Chas here, with the proviso that, on the majority of (but NOT all) 8-key flutes and also on most keyless modern ITM flutes I have had the chance to experiment with, the Cnat at the top of the 1st octave is usually best (i.e. strongest and most in tune) fingered oxo xxx(+Eb - if you have it), rather than the commonest ITM fingering of oxx ooo. Equally, on most whistles (and cylindrical poly-flutes like Tipples and Dixons) oxx xox is usually best.

I mostly use oxo xxx on flute and oxx xox on whistle and, with long familiarity, mostly have no trouble switching between them according to which instrument I'm holding. However, I have a piccolo (acquired last summer) that requires oxx ooo, which I am less used to and at present have to do specific practice for if I'm going to use the instrument out. Because I mostly play keyed flutes, I also use the C nat key for the 1st octave C, switching between key and cross-fingering according to which offers the greater facility in a specific musical context. Odd and wonderful thing, the human brain and ingrained habit! Yes, you do have to work at it to begin with, but you get there in the end and, as with all these early stages issues, in the far future you'll hardly recall you had the problem, unless you start teaching!

I'd add that both these fingerings make "over the break" movement easier than the oxx ooo fingering - less fingers moving simultaneously - and even make true Cnat rolls and D rolls with C nat as the lower note possible.

For the Cs nat and # at the top of the 2nd octave, again, I'd agree with Chas, though (and yes, I realise we are addressing the proud owner of a brand new keyless flute) he doesn't mention the need to vent the Eb key for most of those fingerings on a keyed flute, nor the basic 8-key top C nat fingering which is xox xxFnato Eb. Also oxo xxo sometimes works tolerably in both octaves on some flutes, especially in swift alternation with E for the lower one.

The main point to absorb is Crookedtunes' one -

You should look at all the options and figure out what works best for you, and on your particular flute

And you wrote,

I don't know, should I maintain my poor-sounding fingering or learn the new one? It's so hard to learn things new again after you've learned them once

My answer is unequivocally "Learn what works best" - you'll thank yourself later that you made the effort and it will increase your adaptability and general command of the instrument.

[talasiga]

If it suits your left hand grip style, there is something quite magical about a judiciously placed thumbhole for a Cnat on a flute. For A Dorian you can really play about with sliding in and out of the minor third and also for sculpting your perfect 4th in G maj. (The thumb is more rotary than the index finger and there is the magic perhaps)

However I feel that thumbhole Cnat is a little too "precise" on most D Mixolydian pieces.

If you are into Iberian, Indic, Middle Eastern and Greek musics Cnat thumbhole works fantastic for the minor 2nd in B Phrygian.

(comments premised on D flute)

[Cork]

If it suits your left hand grip style, there is something quite magical about a judiciously placed thumbhole for a Cnat on a flute...

Over and over again, I have heard about a Cnat thumbhole, and it seems to be a great thing, but I am not aware of any current maker who offers such an option.

Any suggestion, please?

[talasiga]

Terry McGee placed a thumbhole for me on my Seery blackwood. I think its best to play a flute a while and settle your grip with it first before adding the hole. That way you can be sure that the thumbhole is in the best posi. for you (ie whether 5, 5.30 or 6 o'clock etc).

I like the thumbhole so much that even if I were to get a keyed flute made I probably would do so without a Cnat key at the top.

(You might look up Skip Healy who makes extra holed chromatic flutes. I haven't dealt with him directly but you will see he makes thumbholed flutes. Check it out.)

[Cork]

Terry McGee placed a thumbhole for me on my Seery blackwood. I think its best to play a flute a while and settle your grip with it first before adding the hole. That way you can be sure that the thumbhole is in the best posi. for you (ie whether 5, 5.30 or 6 o'clock etc).

I like the thumbhole so much that even if I were to get a keyed flute made I probably would do so without a Cnat key at the top.

(You might look up Skip Healy who makes extra holed chromatic flutes. I haven't dealt with him directly but you will see he makes thumbholed flutes. Check it out.)

I thank you!

Not that I want to overly complicate a D Irish flute, but the addition of a Cnat thumbhole seems to be a perfect addition.

Beyond that, I have already had a long look at Terry McGee's flutes. So, now that you mention the Cnat thumbhole, I think it's about time I contact him.

Again, I thank you.

[talasiga]

Terry is special but not so special that you should overlook an American wooden flute maker who could place a hole for you while you are there in their workshop. That would be best.

I must emphaise that you should settle you current grip first. For instance, if you are using, say, a Hariprasad Chaurasia style bansuri grip (a type of pipers' grip), your left thumb may be opposite your chin/lower lip for stabilisation (rather than using the base of you left index finger for mstabilisation), and in this case thumbhole would not be good for you.

On my Irish flute I employ bansuric grip with the right hand and a regular come idiosyncratic grip with my left.

Good Luck.