How long and hard should I practice the same tune?

TelegramSam · Post by **TelegramSam** » Sun Oct 27, 2002 8:13 am

Until a girl from one of the floors below you screams "hey" in an angry way and starts running up the stairs after you. (at which point you run away out of the stairwell and back to your room).

peeplj · Post by **peeplj** » Sun Oct 27, 2002 9:26 am

Well, I can give a real-world example:

One of the first Irish reels I "learned" was Cooley's Reel, on flute.

I didn't have a recording of it to work from; I have actually only ever heard one recording of this tune, and that on guitar and played as a slow reel--what I had to work from was sheet music, downloaded from the Web.

And I got playing it well enough that it became one of the "signature" pieces of the band. Pat worked out a very non-traditional guitar part that is very jazzed, and to us at that stage of learning, it sounded pretty good.

Now, years later, I go back and look at that tune, and I see so much more that can be done with it. I see those "building blocks" and the unique way they fit together in this reel. And I wince when I hear the old recordings of us playing this tune and basically murdering it.

But here's the worst part: if I pick up a flute or whistle and just play this reel, what I get is unchanged from the way I played it five years ago.

I am having to go back, phrase at a time, and put the tune back together from scratch, getting the "old tune" out of my head one tone at a time. And it's much harder than it would have been to work the tune up from scrach if I first saw it at the point I'm at now in my playing.

That's what I mean by unlearning mistakes--and it's also what I mean about why it is a mistake to make a concrete image of how a tune should be played in your mind when you are new to the music.

As far as playing the right notes in the right place, I was--and in the classical world in which I was taught, once you're at that point you have done as much with a piece of music as you are allowed to do.

But traditional music is much more than what can be written on paper--and that's one of the things that makes it so wonderful.

Best wishes to all,

--James
http://www.flutesite.com

peeplj · Post by **peeplj** » Sun Oct 27, 2002 9:29 am

By the way, I still love to sightread...for instance, I can take O'Niel's 1800, open it at random, and just start playing tunes...and if nothing disturbs me, I will look up five or six hours later and wonder where the hell the day went.

Best,

--James
http://www.flutesite.com

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Sun Oct 27, 2002 11:22 am

The thing about sight reading is, you come across tunes that live somewhere in your subconcious, often when you go lookign for a particular tune you end up actually learning one from the same page. Learning by serendipity is the best way.

brian_k · Post by **brian_k** » Mon Oct 28, 2002 12:39 am

Colomon's complaint, about the sloppy way some tunebooks are edited, is quite legitimate; every player is going to run into that annoying problem eventually, if he works at all from sheet music. In order to learn to play a new tune (after I can first hum it in my own head, of course), I find it very helpful to use printed sheet music as a sort of a "skeleton" guideline only, and to write out the tune myself in pencil, in a separate spiral notebook -- and I will keep changing the notes and/or ornamentation until I'm satisfied with how it sounds, to my own ear. This approach seems to be the best way to "make the tune your own," and also to avoid the later "unlearning" process that James (correctly, IMO) cites.

Geraldine Cotter's instruction book gives several examples of how to "embellish" the same musical measure, to add variety, avoid monotony, etc.; I found her advice very helpful, when I first started to get a bit better, as a player.

The point that Peter makes, is well taken: no one should be afraid to experiment a bit, with written music. Just because some (hasty pudding?) editor writes something down in a tunebook, that doesn't mean it's engraved in stone, for all time. Learn to trust your own ear, and your instincts; Irish music always was a living tradition, and it always will be.

'luck (& serendipity) to all,
brian_k.

Jens_Hoppe · Post by **Jens_Hoppe** » Mon Oct 28, 2002 6:12 am

On 2002-10-27 12:22, Peter Laban wrote:
The thing about sight reading is, you come across tunes that live somewhere in your subconcious, often when you go lookign for a particular tune you end up actually learning one from the same page.

Oh yes, I have learned more tunes than I can remember that way!

madguy · Post by **madguy** » Mon Oct 28, 2002 9:57 am

Peter, although I respect and learn a lot from what you say about not using sheet music, I must say that everyone isn't as gifted as you and others when it comes to learning by ear. As a musician who had formal training on piano I find sight reading extremely beneficial with the whistle, also. Remember, not all of us choose to nor have the chance to play in sessions!

CraigMc · Post by **CraigMc** » Mon Oct 28, 2002 10:31 am

Peter, although I respect and learn a lot from what you say about not using sheet music, I must say that everyone isn't as gifted as you and others when it comes to learning by ear. As a musician who had formal training on piano I find sight reading extremely beneficial with the whistle, also. Remember, not all of us choose to nor have the chance to play in sessions!

Surprisingly, I don't think Peter has said anything against sight-reading. I can learn only by ear but it has it's limits for sure.

At a session I once attended there was a person who had a tune book open and was reading all the notes and playing along fine. She was able to play every tune at that session. I on the other hand had been learning by ear and could only play along on 3 of the tunes the whole night.

I have to admit being a little miffed about the hole thing, but now I don't care...the more power to those who can sight-read.

I still can't read music but as time goes by I notice I am increasing the speed in which I can pick up a tune. Also as I pick up a basic tune, I am taking embelishments from other tunes I've learned and naturally adding them to the new tune.

burnsbyrne · Post by **burnsbyrne** » Mon Oct 28, 2002 10:49 am

Most people I know use the term "sight read" to mean the ability to pick up a piece of music you've never seen before and play it at proper speed. Following this definition I cannot sight read but I can decipher the code well enough to learn a tune of single notes (no chords).

I think there doesn't have to be a either/or thing here. It has been demonstrated adequately (for me at least) that IrTrad music can be learned from paper or aurally. I am also satisfied that it's essential to get into contact with other musicians in sessions to learn those parts of the music that can't be learned alone with music or CDs. I have been learning with an Irish teacher, from sheet music and recordings provided by the teacher. I rapidly memorize the tunes but it's nice to have the sheet music to go back to when my memory fails me, which happens a lot recently. I think everybody's goal is to be able to play spontaneously, without relying on sheet music or recordings to jog one's memory. I guess that it's not a black/white either/or my way or the hyway kind of world.
Mike

srt19170 · Post by **srt19170** » Mon Oct 28, 2002 1:00 pm

On 2002-10-27 10:26, peeplj wrote:
[..about his experience with Cooley's Reel]

I am having to go back, phrase at a time, and put the tune back together from scratch, getting the "old tune" out of my head one tone at a time. And it's much harder than it would have been to work the tune up from scratch if I first saw it at the point I'm at now in my playing.

I think the key phrase is "at the point I'm at now..." Most of us probably do the best job we can at any one time along the curve of mastery. Learning a tune note-for-note may not be the best way for an accomplished musician, but it might be the best someone on the way to mastery can do. If you get what I mean.

-- Scott

Azalin · Post by **Azalin** » Mon Oct 28, 2002 1:26 pm

If there's one thing that would drive me litterally insane in a session it would be someone who's playing from sheet music. Geeze, not only won't you be able to expect much creativity and imagination in their music, but what about these quick eye contacts and funny smiles that make some sessions even more fun. Anyway, I don't have anything against sheet music, as long as it's not done in a session.

Related to madguy's comment, I'm sure that the main problem with sight reading to by-ear playin' is not about talent, it's about re-learning something "we know", but differently. This seems almost like an impossible mission for some people to start learning by ear when they read music, but I'm sure they're all talentful with playing by ear than many other musicians.

JohnPalmer · Post by **JohnPalmer** » Mon Oct 28, 2002 6:21 pm

Azlin wrote:

If there's one thing that would drive me litterally insane in a session it would be someone who's playing from sheet music. Geeze, not only won't you be able to expect much creativity and imagination in their music, but what about these quick eye contacts and funny smiles that make some sessions even more fun. Anyway, I don't have anything against sheet music, as long as it's not done in a session.

Is no sheet music a norm at most sessions? And who's to say that someone who uses sheet music won't be very creative? Are we to be judged on creativity at most sessions? Can anyone really hear anyone else as an individual? I thought each person's sound blended into the entire group's sound. JP

Azalin · Post by **Azalin** » Mon Oct 28, 2002 6:31 pm

Well, again, it's all a matter of personnal taste. I personally listen to each musician, notice when someone is playing a variation, actually usually smiling of admiration when it happens. I usually know who's playing what, and would like to play my own tunes always a different way.

Now, if there are people who are good enough to play the music from a sheet, but actually have the time to process what they read *and* add some variation to their music, that's just amazing, from my point of view.

Bloomfield · Post by **Bloomfield** » Mon Oct 28, 2002 7:23 pm

On 2002-10-28 19:21, JohnPalmer wrote:
Azlin wrote:

If there's one thing that would drive me litterally insane in a session it would be someone who's playing from sheet music. Geeze, not only won't you be able to expect much creativity and imagination in their music, but what about these quick eye contacts and funny smiles that make some sessions even more fun. Anyway, I don't have anything against sheet music, as long as it's not done in a session.
Is no sheet music a norm at most sessions? And who's to say that someone who uses sheet music won't be very creative? Are we to be judged on creativity at most sessions? Can anyone really hear anyone else as an individual? I thought each person's sound blended into the entire group's sound. JP

Yes, there is a norm against sheet music at session. Doesn't mean you can't do it: you can do what you want. But you'd be the one doing something unusual that you should discuss with the others at the session first.

Everyone I have ever seen pull out sheet music at a session or a session-like event had not (yet) gone to the trouble to show the music they were attempting to play the respect it deserves by listeninging extensively, reading about it, interesting themselves in the culture that it is part of.

I don't know if you'll be judged on creativity at most session; and the sessions I go to tend to be very non-judgmental, or perhaps forgiving. But people will notice your creativity and appreciate it. In my early days (and they are not long ago), and old-timer leaned over to me after I just played Sally Gardens Reel through three times identically (learned from sheet music, btw) and said: "you know, it get's really nice if you vary it a bit every time around: I like those little differences."

Yes, they can hear, and they want to hear you, and in my experience they pay attention, too. (Which I take to be a pointer of how I should play & listen in the session, too.) About the sound blending: That only works (in my experience) when everyone hears everyone else, or almost everyone else. When everyone is listening to each other and the tune gels, you can hear it: It is like a lifting, a boost, an exciting rush of energy and life. It doesn't happen much at the sessions I go to, but when it does it makes all the time spent trying for it so worth it. It's a drug. I've known it happen with pretty rank beginners in the circle (like me, ahem...) but it won't happen if someone is reading sheet music, I'm sure.

peeplj · Post by **peeplj** » Mon Oct 28, 2002 7:41 pm

I think sightreading is a great way to learn to play an instrument, and a great skill to have.

Performance and session, though, is not the place I do sightreading.

Also "sightreading," if you get technical, can only be done once, the very first time you play a tune. It's never sightreading again after the first time.

Rather or not sheet music has a place at sessions? If it makes the music better, than I have no problem with it. If it interferes, then that's another story. (Usually, if in interferes, you have a bigger problem with a player than just sheet music, but that's only my own experience.)

Best,

--James
http://www.flutesite.com