Right hand problems

[Whistlin'Dixie]

good advice, as always.

M

[talasiga]

.......
The position of the RH thumb is not a "natural" one, being turned under one's hand, to then hold the flute with just the tip of one's thumb.
.......

Now I understand yourearlier thumb comment better. Thanks.

Gododin, you must have missed points in my earlier post because you have only provided hands focussed pictures. I would like to make whole body posture assessment but you have not provided anything for that.

As I said, the grip needs to be as relaxed as possible. However, while it is the hands that grip that is not where the relaxation starts or finishes.

[jim stone]

'The tension isn't the result of your bad grip. There is no such thing as a bad grip. Anymore than there is a perfect flute or a "correct" embouchure (all things being equal). The "bad grip" proceeds from your tension. Don't strangle the flute. Just get loose and comfy and play a waltz. When you get tense, stop and relax. Then pick up the flute and find a more comfortable way of holding it. Loosen your lips and roll your head around to loosen your neck. All will be well if you stick with it. I guarantee it.

People on this forum who have been playing a while, and who have demonstrated that they can play, don't talk about a particular grip or give specific advice to that end. They just tell you to relax. And to enjoy the trip.

........................................................................

I think the advice your giving is very good, as is Harry's. Also
I expect it may be of real help to the poster, whose pictures
suggest that he is using a pretty standard classical grip,
as best I can see.


Two reservations:
Personally I don't think piper's grip is bad. As mentioned I use it
on flute, along with classical. When first I went to get a lesson
from Grey L, I was using classical on my left hand and pipers
on my rt--no reason, just picked it up that way. He told me
to shift to classical on rt. Said it would be more agile.
I do think it's good advice, I'm more
agile that way.

More recently I've shifted back to pipers because I have
a ganglion cyst in my left wrist and need to get the pressure
off. Well, might as well do it rt hand too. I've been playing
piper's for several months now this way. It's pretty good.
It's relaxed and natural, straight wrists. left hand rolls
are easier, slides are easy. As my cyst is improving (or I'm
better able to accomodate it), I'm beginning to move
back into classical. It's somewhat more agile for me, even
after the long lay off. The finger pads and balls feel the holes
better, fit them more nimbly, and a curved finger does seem
to move a bit quicker. The mechanics of the finger favor
it a little, I believe. Orthopaedist says that too.

So I don't think there's anything wrong with piper's grip, I
don't think it's bad, and it has some advantages. Also there
are people out there playing pipers who will play rings around
most people using classical. But I do think there's something
to what Grey said. At least for some of us.
No I don't think he told me that because he
didn't know what to say about the music.

Second, while 'bad grip' can result from tension,
the opposite is sometimes true too. That is, people
sometimes have this or that finger or wrist or
elbow in a position that
is causing them pain or causing stress. I think the advice
'When pain arises, never review in detail your posture,
where your fingers are placed, how your wrists are positioned; just loosen
your lips, roll your head around, get comfy--it'll work out''
is going too far to the other extreme. Loosening your lips
and rolling your head around and trying to get
comfy with the thing is definitely a good idea, by all means,
but it may not be enough.

For instance I was quite comfy and happy at
four years in when I began to develop increasing
pain in my rt hand, especially across the rt top side of it.
And I did relax and all the rest, and I lift weights, by the way, and I
stretch and I meditate, but the pain got worse.

So I began to look carefully and particularly.
After awhile I noticed that my rt thumb
had gradually gravitated down the flute so that it was past r2.
This had worked well enough for good while, but my hand was stressed
on account of it
and it was causing the pain. My thumb needed to move up.
But it didn't want to go! So I put adhesive tape on all
my flutes in the place where my thumb was meant to go.
Did it to my whistles too and I slowly trained myself to change
my thumb position so that it was between R1 and R2.

No more pain.

So I think you are giving a good deal of helpful advice, but
perhaps when taken to extremes it becomes less good.

As to the suggestion that 'People on this forum who have been playing a while, and who have demonstrated that they can play' (that is have
posted a clip) are those whose
advice really matters, I don't think this serves the purposes
of people asking questions. People in your favored group sometimes
give bad advice, people outside it sometimes give
good advice. Posting clips, whatever, of course, is a
good idea. But privileging that bunch discounts too many people without
a good reason.

[Cork]

...I disagree with Cork's "juggling act" comment!...

Well, I thought a bit of humor could be a good thing. Besides, until a player has a good understanding of the many details involved, just maybe juggling could be a fair description.

[Cork]

Thanks for the advice so far. Here are some photos of my right hand taken whilst playing today. This is the first time I've posted images, so fingers crossed... Any observations would be welcome.

Just for now, try to not use your L4 and R4 for support. On the right hand, you want to support the flute with only your thumb, and removing any influence of your R4 will help you get the thumb into place.

Two of the three photos show your left wrist at a fairly sharp angle. See if you can get that wrist a bit straighter. A lot goes on in a wrist, and extreme angles can lead to injuries, not good.

[cocusflute]

Dear Cork. Dear Stone.
I don't know if you are naturally obtuse or so ego-driven that you can't let a thread go by with saying something - no matter what has been said before, or by whom.
Assuming you know who Harry Bradley is, and why he is so respected (listen to his clip), you would do well to pay attention when he says anything about playing the flute. This is what he said regarding grip:

I've seen literally hundreds of methods for holding the flute... relaxing the grip/ hands/ arms/ shoulders/ everything is the key to not getting pain regardless of what weird way you hold the thing.

I'm sorry to be so harsh. Sorry to be so ad hominum. But in this case your soi-disant advice could actually be more harmful than beneficial.

[fyffer]

Playing the flute isn't supposed to hurt--that's what dancing is for!

Just to lighten this up a bit ... And to thank talasiga for the link.

No other comments from me -- too much the grasshopper to do anything other than read [and snicker].

[rama]

gododdin,

from viewing the photos, the rh looks relaxed, except the pinkie of course. do you think the strain that you feel in your hand is from that pinkie being anchored like that?
if so, read on...
...sometimes seperation of movement of pinkie from ring finger can feel uncomfortable in some hands where independent motor skills in each finger have not been developed - the ring and pinkie tend to want to hangout together. now when the pinkie becomes fixed and the ring still wants to move around, that situation can create a strain like feeling in the hand. not a bad thing, just a little learning curve (for the ring finger).
two things come to mind: let the pinkie move with the ring if it 's too unbearable to keep it anchored, or put a clump of beeswax or something on the flute where the pinkie wants to come to rest, to lessen the reach and strain. there are also exercises and stretches i can elabortate on if it is of interest (i am trained in soft tissue release (str) / repetitive use injury therapy(ruit)) .
hope that helps

[jemtheflute]

Dear Cork. Dear Stone.
I don't know if you are naturally obtuse or so ego-driven that you can't let a thread go by with saying something - no matter what has been said before, or by whom.

Pots and kettles????!!!!!

But seriously, I detect a touch of (undesirable!) tension and strain here, of another kind. I'm not a big forum contributor, just the occasional twopennorth, but I offer what I offer in a spirit of helpfulness (and not didactically - though I have been told I sometimes come over as didactic and absolute when I don't mean to.....!) and I think it is a shame when someone embarks on a crusade or bitchery - quite spoils the whole thing, which generally is so supportive, humourous, generous, etc. etc. By all means argue if you think someone has got things factually wrong - and show how, but why just carp?

BTW, if my previous post on this thread is read carefully, it should be clear that I conform to the general tenor of advice in this thread - relax! and I do not really prescribe a particular "correct" posture/hold: rather I advocate/explain ways of seeking the individual's optimum. That said, whilst I do not believe there is one "correct" or "best" way, I do think there are ways that are demonstrably disadvantageous (notwithstanding - and I have acknowledged this in a previous related thread - that I fully respect many great players who use pipers' grip, rest on their shoulders, etc.), yes, even "wrong", and advice can be given to help identify potentially harmful traits and encourage methods that on anatomical/ergonomic grounds may be preferable/helpful. I don't think anything I've said is necessarily in conflict with Harry's comments.

I think that the value of what a contributor has to say is chiefly apparent intrinsically, without the need for "credentials", but, to placate the crusader(s), I have been playing for 31 years, about 25 of those chiefly on 8-key simple system. I'm widely read (Quantz, Rockstro, Boehm, Bate, Galway, others I don't specifically recall, as well as periodical stuff and much on-line) on flute history and playing, but am not classically trained nor an academic. I listen to both trad Celtic music and Period Performance of Baroque and Classical repertory. I teach (trad) when there is a demand (limited locally). I get paid to play from time to time (less than I'd like!). I'd consider myself to be at a fairly advanced level as a player and as a semi-pro, but emphatically not in the upper echelons. I think honest and realistic self-evaluation is a virtue and a strength. I know how good I'm NOT for sure! I'll post a clip or two eventually when I have time, although if you'll excuse the bad sound quality of the transfers (I'm a learner re: the technology), you can find some demo clips I linked on the postings I've listed of flutes for sale. I'd like to think I play better on my own familiar flute, which isn't represented there. I only make serious posts when I'm confident I know what I'm on about - if I don't have a good knowledge base, I shut up, read and learn........ (except when I can't resist a bit of word play!!!!!!!!!!!!)

[Harry]

What a pity that my pointless, subjective and thoroughly useless piece of information has become the pivot of an argument.

Information and opinions do not make flute players. Nearly every learner gets a sore thumb or hand or something, then they relax into it a bit and it generally goes away unless they form a habit, or practice badly. Its hardly the stuff of another crap internet thesis.

Now, lets all shut the f**k up... just a suggestion, of course.

Regards,

Harry.

[jemtheflute]

What a pity that my pointless, subjective and thoroughly useless piece of information has become the pivot of an argument.

Hear, hear! Though I'd not say it was useless at all.

Nearly every learner gets a sore thumb or hand or something, then they relax into it a bit and it generally goes away unless they form a habit, or practice badly.

Agreed.

Now, lets all shut the f**k up... just a suggestion, of course.

zzzziiiipppp

[Cork]

.......
The position of the RH thumb is not a "natural" one, being turned under one's hand, to then hold the flute with just the tip of one's thumb.
.......

Now I understand yourearlier thumb comment better. Thanks...

Yer welcome!

Seeing as the original poster's RH tehnique had apparently failed, it made sense to suggest the "standard" RH technique, a technique which in one way and another has been with the flute playing community for more than three hundred years, so I had better not screw up the presentation, or legions of other flute players from around the world could correct me, pronto.

;-)

[gododdin]

Well now, at the risk of sounding like a diplomat I think that there is a lot of wisdom here from all parties:

1. I think it probably is a good idea to adopt a standard-ish approach to the right hand, because anything too esoteric might be likely to lead to tension and the standard techniques have probably evolved precisely because they lead to a relaxed approach.

2. Having said that I detect that there is much variation around the 'standard' approaches, but I really believe that the secret is in relaxation and the whole idea of 'relinquishing control' (as you can tell, I like that a lot - thanks Harry!) . Having struggled with undue tension on the fiddle for years the last thing I want is to go down the same road with the flute, hence my concern regarding the tension.

As a beginner the main thing I want to avoid is getting into bad habits. The worst habit of all is to have tension in your body but my concern was that a 'bad' right hand technique could lead to such tension. From what you've collectively said it sounds as if my hand position is good enough to be going on with and that the main thing I need to concentrate on is 'whole'body' relaxation.

I'm also going to take on board Rama's comments about the pinkie and may try lifting it once in a while to relax it (because yes, I think the strain I feel is at least partly down to anchoring the pinkie). One thing I've noticed from the pics is that it's quite a long way out from the ring finger, so I'm also going to try moving it in a little closer.

Thanks again for the help and advice.

[cadancer]

You may also try and note if your left hand is pulling down on the flute causing your right to work harder to keep it up.

...john

[lesl]

...Basically, the pain I have is in the back of my hand (opposite the palm) and also a little along the little finger (pinky)...

I had that once in my left hand when trying to play one handed B rolls nonstop for 10 minutes. Something I never tried again.

When I first started flute I got a lot of muscle aches in both hands. I used a squeezy ball to strengthen them.

Here's something I've not seen mentioned in this thread. Sometimes you can be unconsciously turning the flute while playing, to get the tone to improve. The left hand starts to push in or turn to get the flute closer to your lip, but then your right hand compensates by pressing outward to get balance, that makes you turn in with the left, etc. Doing all that, while trying to maintain your fingering, ends up in tension. To see if this happens, put the flute up to your mouth normally and do the fingerings of some tune you know, but not any blowing. See if your hands stay relaxed that way.

The solution I was told is to always press as lightly as possible on the lip. And continue to work on tone. (Using your mouth not your hands.) Hope that helps some.