Interesting concept

oliver · Post by **oliver** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 3:24 am

boyd wrote: Some people who are very green and new say some desperately cocky stuff, or are resistant to comments and suggestions, not realising that someone VERY knowledgable has just given them a few pearls.

It has happened quite a few times on a reputable French forum which was quite nice before and now the forum's all finished, people finally left. I was not the last one to leave... just got bored.

billh · Post by **billh** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 4:26 am

Dale wrote:I like this idea. The process of selecting such people could be a bit tricky. But, it's do-able, I think.

Yes, this would be the tricky part. Seniority unfortunately doesn't correlate too well with expertise (some would say cluefulness is in inverse proportion to number of posts...)

Joseph E. Smith · Post by **Joseph E. Smith** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 4:38 am

billh wrote:
Dale wrote:I like this idea. The process of selecting such people could be a bit tricky. But, it's do-able, I think.
Yes, this would be the tricky part. Seniority unfortunately doesn't correlate too well with expertise (some would say cluefulness is in inverse proportion to number of posts...)

Candidates would need to show a resume of "experience", aka a verifiable history of musicianship that could be endorsed by their peers and familiars. It could work, but I don't see it doing so easily: there are always the handful who'll disregard it.

Post by **Dale** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 5:41 am

We could pilot the idea on the pipe board.

Joseph E. Smith · Post by **Joseph E. Smith** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 5:51 am

I like this idea and I think it has merit, however, my concern is that those who would be the ideal candidates for this position wouldn't come any where near it.

mayo_piper · Post by **mayo_piper** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 6:10 am

I vote for it - but just keep in mind that some "surely" pipers will feel very upset that THEY were NOT among the choosen elite !

That's the downside and we might lose some people on this.

Food for thought...

mukade · Post by **mukade** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 7:12 am

This idea gets my vote. A trial on this board is also a good idea.

There have been many occasions when I have clicked on 'post reply,' started to write a long message, then closed the browser because I feel it is not worth writing anything serious on this forum.

Perhaps it is time to change the atmosphere around here, and attracting experienced players instead of forcing them away is the best way to it.

Mukade

* On a related theme, closing the political forum was an excellent move. I also think the pub should be moved away.

Doc Jones · Post by **Doc Jones** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 7:24 am

On reflection, I think it would be disastrous to use a title like "Mentor" or "Poobah" that would surely fuel the flames of disgruntled ego maniacs and mal-contents.

But I thnk it would be great for those with vast experience to be given a "nod" that they have some special credentials. Joseph knows who they are. Many who are regulars know who they are. I think it would be good if the new-comers could know who they are.

They wouldn't have any special authority or comitments.

Doc

djm · Post by **djm** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 7:53 am

I like the idea in principle, but it also assumes that such great fountains of wisdom have the ability and the maturity to communicate their thoughts well on a written forum like this. Past experience has surely shown us that many of them are NOT able to do this. Pearls of wisdom may, indeed, have been shared, but seldom in a useful or recognizable way. This has lead to lots of snarky criticisms and outright insults.

You can say that C&F-UP has a bad reputation for stupidity, but a lot of that stupidity comes from those you may think are authorities. Its the tit-for-tat that often makes this forum less than what it could be.

I agree with KLR that a lot could be done to edit the existing FAQs to whittle them down to essentials, and that a lot of the same questions asked over and over each week by the next newbie should be added to the FAQs as their repetitious nature becomes obvious.

It seems to me there are generally two factions at war here: those who want a facts only forum, information as I want it when I want it, versus those who would like to chat/socialize/kid around with other pipers as part of their piping experience. I don't think we will ever fully satisfy both camps.

The <A HREF="http://uilleannforum.com/forums/index.php">UP Discussion Forum</A> (the "other" site) has offered itself up as a dead serious, no joking, just the facts ma'am piping site, and got NO takers. When the moderators there opened up the rules to allow anything goes, it still got little or no action. It would appear from this that, despite all its warts and wrinkles, people would much rather sit here and bitch about C&F rather than go to a site that meets their demands.

In that case, I would suggest that the mods take all the whinging in stride for what it is, just people letting off steam. There's no sense trying to turn into UP nazis to the extent that no-one wants to articipate here any more.

djm

Joseph E. Smith · Post by **Joseph E. Smith** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 7:57 am

Doc Jones wrote:
But I thnk it would be great for those with vast experience to be given a "nod" that they have some special credentials. Joseph knows who they are. Many who are regulars know who they are. I think it would be good if the new-comers could know who they are.

Doc

I know who some of them are, but they have chosen a 'hidden' online status to remain anonymous and thusly, posting their ID's here would be a serious breach of trust. Some of these members have not posted in years, my guess is they have left for the same reasons Peter has, and I wouldn't doubt that some of those left out of objection to me becoming a moderator or my posting style... among other reasons.

The thing is, as I see it, there are so many cock-sure newbies who seem to feel that they're above tutoring, or reproach when they have posted material that is either inadequate or completely wrong (count me in there somewhere). And when someone of experience and greater knowledge takes them to task for it, rather than accepting the correction, these newbies tend to react in a negative, insulting manner.

Now, I understand that there is a wide variety of member personality differences here, and as is often the case, feelings get bruised. I try to keep the bruising down, but it does not help my effort (nor endear this forum to the members who could do us all a lot of good), when the corrected attack those who actually know a thing or two about the pipes.

In order for something like your suggestion to work, Doc, there needs to be an environment established here that is far more welcoming to experienced pipers (and their willingness to pass on what they have learned) than there currently is. Unless that changes, this forum will become an information vacuum where the blind are leading the blinder... and to some extent, it already is... but I fear that the damage that has already been done, is irreversible and we'll not see them return.

CHasR · Post by **CHasR** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:53 am

I dont like the idea.
Right now everything's nice and Feudal, why go gumming things up by ordaining a Preistly 3rd class? (this can only lead to trouble )
It's always been clear to me who the experts are.

Bill Reeder · Post by **Bill Reeder** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 1:27 pm

Let's prevail on Peter Laban to sort everyone out and assign them a rank.
Lowest numbers carry the most weight. We could call the list "Peter's Priestly Piper Pecking Order". No offense meant to Peter - I'm a sucker for alliteration.

Pazziato · Post by **Pazziato** » Fri Jun 08, 2007 1:55 pm

I agree with CHasR.. . I just started strangulating the brass, wood and leather octopus and its fairly easy to tell the difference between someone who knows what they are talking about and a wanker (and those wankers who know what they're talking about).

That being said, it could be fun to watch the bickering and name-calling and bitterness that might arise from the issuance of credentials.

Edited to add: and for feck's sake, I come to this board to learn, and hopefully one day I will be able to share useful information with others. Assuming that to be the general purpose of most people using this Board (to wit: sharing information and communicating about pipering, et c), I don't see the utility in handing out credentials.

The credentials that matter most aren't those this message board or its members can give out. As such, I think labeling some folks as "experts" and other as less "expert" and even other as "rank beginners" is redundant.

djones · Post by **djones** » Fri Jun 08, 2007 2:06 pm

In the GHB world, we have competition to set expertise rank. For example, I'm grade 3 and everyone knows very generally what I cannot and can do. It's like a little badge that qualifies one for certain things.

Sadly, competition has become synonymous with piping itself for a lot of GHB players and it just ruins the whole thing.

DJones

Brian Lee · Post by **Brian Lee** » Fri Jun 08, 2007 3:02 pm

I don't think it would ever work. There's too much ego involved on both sides. And as has been mentioned before, even some of the most experienced have little to no tact when delivering "great and helpful information" to others, and it just comes off as a snide slap in the face.

How about this - why don't they do what others have done for ages of time, and if they have something to share to the community at large, write a book. Or in todays new fangled space age - host a web page. Put ALL your vast knowledge in one concise and easily read place. Keep it simple. Maybe start to form some sort of framework that becomes a standard in folk music circles for presenting needed information.

Then LINK it here. Simple.

Chiff and Fipple Forums

Interesting concept

Interested to know what folks think.

idea

Bologna, Spandex, and Non-Sugar Creamer