Rudall & Rose 3415 F/S

[jim stone]

I'm not opposed to anything!
I said earlier in the thread I thought the
price was reasonable.
Sincere questions.

My question was this--how does a good one of these stack up against
a Grinter simply as a musical instrument? This
is a request for info. I know something about
the Grinter. For instance, it plays easily in the
third octave up to the A.

As to your Miro analogy, I simply don't understand your
fascination with lewd pictures.
As soon as these people broke away from
straightforward representation, they
painted nothing but filth.

[sturob]

Nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnkay.

Um, well. How does it compare to a Grinter.

Anyone want to field that one?

Stuart

[eilam]

Nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnkay.

Um, well. How does it compare to a Grinter.

Anyone want to field that one?

Stuart

no

[jim stone]

I will assume, until someone says otherwise,
that very good, old Rudalls, while they may sometimes be somewhat
superior tonally to contemporary good Rudall-style
flutes (as Dave M said earlier), are more or less
in the same league. The added value flows from
other considerations, e.g. cachet, collectors item,
physical beauty. This is not a complaint.

[Jon C.]

I will assume, until someone says otherwise,
that very good, old Rudalls, while they may sometimes be somewhat
superior tonally to contemporary good Rudall-style
flutes (as Dave M said earlier), are more or less
in the same league. The added value flows from
other considerations, e.g. cachet, collectors item,
physical beauty. This is not a complaint.

I would say that is like comparing a Stradivarius violin to a modern violin...
They both play well, but the original has a magic about it...
I wish I could find out what that was! I have even done a cast of a original R&R Embouchure hole to try to copy it, still at a loss to why the flute plays better. So go figure... My Fentum plays as nice though, and I got that for $400.

[jim stone]

thanks, perhaps old wood has something to do with it,
as suggested earlier?

[jim stone]

Question:

We know that some of the best professional Irish flautists
are playing and recording on
Grinters, Aebis and Murrays, all Rudallesque flutes.
As there are good Rudalls still, and, unlike the Strad,
they are affordable, why aren't Kevin and Harry and Chris
playing them? If the vintage flute is a flute-Strad?

This is all sour grapes, you understand, because
I can't raise 6000 dollars....

[rama]

jim...put down the crack pipe ole boy, it's messing with yer mind.

[Steampacket]

"As there are good Rudalls still, and, unlike the Strad,
they are affordable, why aren't Kevin and Harry and Chris
playing them? If the vintage flute is a flute-Strad? " Jim Stone

Jim has a point here, something I've wondered about myself. Prehaps it's just preference, these musicians prehaps just happen to prefer modern flutes that play well, and are perfectly capable of expressing what they want to say, and how they want to sound.

Rudalls certainly made top quality instruments, and yes, they are affordable if you compare the price of one to that of a Cremona fiddle. Still even so if you can get a top quality modern timber flute for half the price that does the job, then why bother to chase after a Rudall and pay prehaps double or more just because it's old and has a history, and that you have to keep a beady eye so that it doesn't get stolen, or knocked off the table at a session. Of course a good Rudall is also an economic investment as well, this is true.

[jim stone]

Just told the wife that a 'good Rudall is an economic investment.'
She laughed and laughed. Where's dat pipe?

[cocusflute]

Old Rudalls are still great bargains. They are still going up in value. Pre-war Martin guitars can sell for well over $10,000. Gibson F-5 mandolins from the 1920's go for $100,000.We won't even talk about old fiddles. Old Rudalls are undervalued.
There are plenty of great fluters who use Rudalls and love them. They are still bargains as antique instruments.
I still have a Rudall that I bought in 1989 and one that I bought several years ago from Tony Bingham. I can't bear to sell them, even though I've sold others. There's a tinge of regret at having let each one go.
Michael Flatley is no fool. He's a great player and he plays a Rudall (he's still collecting them) as does Cathal McConnell, Seamus Tansey, Jimmy Noonan, Christy Barry, David Migoya, Brendan McKinney, Catherine McEvoy, Frank Claudy and a host of wonderful players. Many of them own modern flutes as well, but they still play their old Rudalls. It all really starts with Rudall & Rose. They are reference points for what came after.
It's about more than volume and tuning, isn't it? There's a reason some flute-makers have several antique flutes. When you learn to play an old flute you develop aspects of musicality that you won't find playing a new flute.

[rama]

jim, once in a lifetime opportunity here, you'll may never see a rudall like this again.... try another round of negotiations w/ the boss, you can sell off some of your other flutes if need be.



flute acquisition is not about 'just' another flute - but a lifestyle of dignity and honor, which unfortuantely has been discriminated against throughout history.

[daveogden]

The values of original vintage instruments are usually substantially different from replicas of them. If a good replica of an 8 key Rudall by a talented contemporary maker will go for around $4500.00 US, then that would be what a vintage instrument dealer would call the "utility value" of the instrument. That's what a good player's instrument would sell for new, in other words. If you wanted a new fully keyed instrument to play, that's about what you'd pay, more or less.

Years ago in the vintage guitar market there were players who complained that the original vintage guitars were being priced out of their reach by investors. At this point that argument is long gone; if you want a flamey '59 Les Paul to play you're in the $300K price range; a good Gibson replica can be found for $4K. That price differential hasn't really happened yet in the antique flute market, but it's not unreasonable to think that something similar will happen eventually, as more people take up the wooden flute and get interested in the originals that flutemakers copy. This original Rudall is priced only 25% more than the utility value of the instrument. That might be a bargain, and a good investment. I don't know, prices in the antique flute market will depend on demand, as they do in the vintage guitar market. There certainly aren't as many flute players as there are guitar players, that should keep prices lower. But it's not unreasonable to expect them to rise beyond a small percentage above the instrument's utility value.

Just my 2 cents worth. -Dave Ogden

[kkrell]

Hi Dave - good to see you here.

Kevin Krell

[eilam]

Hi Dave - good to see you here.

Kevin Krell

i was thinking the same thing !! hi.......long time....