Raising Grain

[Joseph E. Smith]

Out of idle curiosity, I'd like to poll the reedmakers here on which they prefer... to raise the grain or not to raise the grain.

For those who are uncertain what raising the grain is, it is a process by which the slip is sanded then wet down and allowed to dry. Wetting the slip allows for the grain in the interior of the slip to swell up and once dry, it is then re-sanded to remove the grain.

This aids in keeping the reed's interior area a smooth one... at least, as smooth as can be. Also, it aids in maintaining the the interior dimension a uniform one.

Feel free to expound on your preference.

[djm]

Idle conjecture here, but if you are going to wet the interior suface to raise the grain, wouldn't it be better to scrape the inner surface rather than sand it? You'd end up with a much smoother inner surface as opposed to sanding which always leaves ragged fibres to some degree.

djm

[Tony]

Joseph, do you burnish the inside after your wet/re-sand technique?

[Brian Lee]

I never wet the slips apart from the occasional wetting of the tails prior to tying on. Just use progressively finer degrees of paper. Have tried scrapers and never found I got the same finish myself. I end with a 2000 grit automotive wet/dry (using it dry mind you) paper that leaves a very smooth almost polished surface. Nothing else to it really - and my reeds inner surfaces are still smooth years later. I also have used fairly hard cane in the past and am now using stuff slightly softer. Not sure what the long-term prognosis is for the softer cane...if it will hold it's surface as well as the slightly harder stuff.

On an unrelated thought - do you find that harder cane tends to result in longer slips/finished reeds vs. softer cane as a rule? I'm seeming to find this myself to a degree, but wondered what the general consensus was - if any!

[elbowmusic]

"Never wet the slips apart from the occasional wetting of the tails prior to tying on."

People wet their reeds with good results. Never is a strong word. I personally don't raise the grain, but I've considered it in the past. And some very good reedmakers of other pipes (including bellows pipes) dunk the whole things in water and they consider it a great idea.

I'm also wary of wetting my reeds, but people do it.

[Joseph E. Smith]

Idle conjecture here, but if you are going to wet the interior suface to raise the grain, wouldn't it be better to scrape the inner surface rather than sand it? You'd end up with a much smoother inner surface as opposed to sanding which always leaves ragged fibres to some degree.

djm

I gouge, scrape and sand each slip prior to raising the grain. Afterward, a fine sandpaper (I use 320 grit) takes off the grain very nicely.

Joseph, do you burnish the inside after your wet/re-sand technique?

Yes I do, much in the same way that Cillian O'Briain does after he raises the grain.

Never wet the slips apart from the occasional wetting of the tails prior to tying on. Just use progressively finer degrees of paper.

I wholeheartedly, though respectfully, disagree with this... except for the progressively finer degrees of sandpaper bit.

Cane has a memory, and wetting it (prior to making a reed out of it) will in no way (that I have found to date) affect it negatively whatsoever.

When using rolled staples, it is advisable to wet the tails prior to tying on... and cane being like a sponge, will soak up water entirely, regardless how little you might think you have wet it.

[billh]

FWIW, David Quinn, who describes the wet-tying method of reedmaking in The Pipers' Despair and seemed to advocate it for narrow bore chanter reeds, tells me that he no longer practices this method for uilleann pipes. He has come to believe that it adversely affects the tone of the resulting reeds. Not sure if this concern of his extends to dampening the tails of reed slips or not.

[Brian Lee]

Sorry lads - typo. Meant to say I never wet my slips - except occasionally for the tails.

Now then - Back to your cane dust and cold pints!

[AlanB]

My penneth.

By the time you've cut and chamfered tails, tied it to a staple, scraped the the blades, added a bridle etc., the usefulness of any 'precise' uniformity gained by 'raising the grain' etc., is likely to be lost or not hold much sway on the working reed.

Whether it has an effect on the tone or longevity of the reed itself, I don't know, but there have been countless ideas to shine up/smooth off the inside of the reedhead. Double reed makers have been at it long enough to have identified any magic processes, and I don't think they have settled on anything specific.

Also, the quality of the instrument will dictate how much noticeable extra efficiency is achieved, so it may be difficult to really make a sound judgement.

I'll try anything to cut out the arsepain parts of reedmaking though! And it breaks the monotony too.

Not voting, too young.

[Joseph E. Smith]

I can't speak for climates other than my own as I have not spent enough time making these things outside of Florida.

Over the past 3 years or so, I have been noting the effect that extreme Florida humidity and high summer temperatures have had on my reeds. I like playing out of doors as often as possible (weather permitting) and in an effort to be able to do so without going through a dozen reeds a week, I've read up and studied all I could find of what other reedmakers have done, in an effort to negate the ill effects of my home piping environment.

Slips where I leave the grain 'un-raised', without fail, will become reeds where the humidity alone has raised the grain. When the reeds have dried out, the grain does not shrink back to an 'as new' state. The result is a reed that is muted and whose tone and tuning have been altered to an undesirable condition. The only fix for that is to untie the reed and sand the grain back down, retie the reed and hope it still works.

Slips where I have raised the grain, sanded it down and burnished the inside surface have become reeds where only a very little swelling occurs. These reeds need little or no alteration over time and exposure to Florida's sauna like summer climate. I have also noted that exposure to central air (AC) also seems to be negated somewhat by this process.

Now, your mileage may vary. So far, I like the results I have been getting.

By the time you've cut and chamfered tails, tied it to a staple, scraped the the blades, added a bridle etc., the usefulness of any 'precise' uniformity gained by 'raising the grain' etc., is likely to be lost or not hold much sway on the working reed.

I do not agree here. There is still a lot of surface area on the inside of the reed head that is affected (in my experience) by exposure to climatic changes... at least with regard to the extreme conditions I have noted above.

[myrddinemrys]

I haven't really tested reeds back to back to give an answer, but it is something I do in keeping with instruction from other reedmakers.

[AlanB]

I think you missed my point Joe. I said that I didn't have any comment about longevity, but that any added *uniformity* would be lost in translation after binding etc.,

Think about what happens to the curvature of the blades, particularly around the shoulders compared the actual parts that beat or touch, there is a big difference

What about the grain that lies below that which is raised? That stuff still gets affected/distorted, but it's on such a small level that it doesn't concern us, and I suspect to a great degree this is the same with the surface.

Also, the actual reed design dictates how it reacts and also the cane you use. I think it's better to identify these 2 things as they will give a more permanent and stable result. I am not saying that the process is no use, I'm sure it's fine, I guess I'm lucky I live in a reed friendly climate.

And, point taken about extreme conditions, but your pipes fall apart then anyway.....

[Elmek]

AlanB wrote : I guess I'm lucky I live in a reed friendly climate.

Wow - and I always though 'Shangri La' was a fictional place

John

[Joseph E. Smith]

I think you missed my point Joe. I said that I didn't have any comment about longevity, but that any added *uniformity* would be lost in translation after binding etc.,

I may have, Sometimes the point on the top of my head gets in the way of seeing other points.

Yes, the whole reed is affected by raising the grain, but the shoulders and tails to a lesser degree. While they vibrate and do contribute to over-all tone, they do not do so on a scale equaling that of the blades, and it is the damage to the blades that concerns me most, i.e., the amount of swelling that does not reduce itself.

It's not the 'uniformity' of the over-all slip I am after, but rather, the lack of 'swelling' the blades undergo during normal use in a wetter, hotter environment. By removing that element of a reeds self destrution, it appears to me that reed will enjoy a longer, healthier and more productive life.

And, point taken about extreme conditions, but your pipes fall apart then anyway.....

Hmmmmm, food for thought, perhaps I'll need to do another study... anybody have a set I can use for this?

[bensdad]

Raising the grain, resanding, and burnishing works for me, and you rarely hear me kvetching about the weather affecting my reeds.

But I wonder has anyone tried not bothering with a smooth finish at all: sand the inside with 100 grit and leave it at that? I sometimes wonder whether desirability of the mirror-smooth inside is just received opinion. Of course I don't have the time to conduct the experiment myself, and I'd be happy to be illuminated. Anyone tried it?