Thinking about thirds

[Carey]

Hi gang, I was just thinking that there's a lot of emphasis on D whistles because "my session plays most things in D." But why can't one play the melody on a F whistle and have thirds that fit right in? Or maybe an A? Do people do this? Is is "trad"?

[Tim2723]

I don't know how trad it is, since I'm not all the trad, but yes, as far as I'm concerned you can do it as long as it works. Watch the intervals, as whisltes get a little confusing and things can turn ugly fast, but other than that, go for it.

[Bretton]

I think you'd want an F# (not F-nat) whistle...

[MTGuru]

there's a lot of emphasis on D whistles because "my session plays most things in D."

Hi, Carey. First of all, that's not really the reason. The D whistle is the standard not because most things are in D (they're not necessarily) but because it's the "concert pitch" or "non-transposing" instrument. That is, when you play note X on the D whistle, it's the same letter-name note as on the piano, flute, fiddle/violin, recorder, glockenspiel, etc. These other instruments are sometimes referred to as C instruments, meaning they're non-transposing.

In fact, in classical music, a D whistle would actually be called a C whistle, for the same reason. But by convention, whistles are named according to their lowest bell note, which also happens to be the root of the natural major scale they play. All other whistles would be considered transposing. So for example, when you play the "G" fingering on a Bb whistle, the note you get is not G (it's Eb). That's what is meant by a transposing instrument.

And actually, it can be argued that the reason there are so many D tunes is because of the instruments, not the other way around. But that's a different issue.

Now that you're confused, to answer your other question ...

As Tim said, playing "parallel intervals" can turn ugly fast. Partly because parallel 3rds or 6ths are not really parallel. They would have to alternate between major and minor intervals to conform to the melody and underlying harmony. Which is difficult on whistles because of their chromatic limitations. For example, parallel natural scales on D and F whistles would sound something like this: D + F Scales

Parallel 4ths or 5ths are truly parallel, but end up sounding like medieval chant: D + A Scales

Of course, you can play harmonies on two different-keyed whistles, but there's no real advantage to that. You still have to figure out a harmony line that makes sense musically, not just mechanically. For that, it's actually easier to use two of the same-keyed whistle.

Is it done? In Irish trad, not much. It's more a monophonic tradition, although playing in parallel octaves is not uncommon in some parts. Harmonized melodies can be more characteristic of neo-trad -- for example, some of the the whistle/flute harmony duet playing by Flook. But it might be frowned on in sessions, etc. In our sessions, I sometimes play an improvised harmony line just for fun or variety, but only very sparingly and very briefly, never as a normal thing. It's more a cute trick than an admired technique. But when I'm the session host, no one can stop me.

[MaryC]

...
The D whistle is the standard ... because... it's the "concert pitch" or "non-transposing" instrument. That is, when you play note X on the D whistle, it's the same letter-name note as on the piano, flute, fiddle/violin, recorder, glockenspiel, etc. ...

All other whistles would be considered transposing. So for example, when you play the "G" fingering on a Bb whistle, the note you get is not G (it's Eb). That's what is meant by a transposing instrument. ...

Eh - so a D-whistle is non-transposing, but any other key is transposing??? Or am I misunderstanding something here?

[Carey]

Thanks MT, the parallel/non-parallel thing explains it and it makes sense. A third is a third except when it's not a third. Or something like that.

But why does a 12-string guitar work then? Because it's tuned to the same notes but four strings are an octave apart.

And just to check my thinking here about transposing etc. - The D is non-transposing because when I learned the dots, I see a D and finger a D and get a D (etc.) on a D whistle, but if I pick up that WW A whistle I'm waiting for, I'll see a D, finger a D and I'll get an A.

So it's really my brain, or rather my learning that makes the D concert and the A transposing? In other words, if I had learnt to see an A, and put all fingers over the holes and get and A, then the A whistle would be concert and the D would be transposing?

So, given my "non-transposed learning" is on a D whistle, to play an A tune on an A whistle (by the dots) I would transpose the A tune into D with the whizzy software that will do that for me, pick up my A whistle, and pretend I'm playing my D while I sight read the tune.

[Guinness]

Excellent explanation MTGuru.

And actually, it can be argued that the reason there are so many D tunes is because of the instruments, not the other way around. But that's a different issue.

Yes. Even though they are fully chromatic, the fiddle and the flute are a mainstay of ITM and the easiest key signatures to play in are D and G.

Playing in unison is a fundamental characteristic of the tradition. Look at step dancing. But playing intervals or countermelodies is very cool.

[Carey]

Yes, very good explaination! I especially benefited from the sound clips. Thanks for those. Learning by ear you know!!

[Tim2723]

But why does a 12-string guitar work then? Because it's tuned to the same notes but four strings are an octave apart.

A 12 string guitar works because the four octave-tuned courses are just that - octaves, and also because the fretboard is fully chromatic. For any fret on any given course you have a perfect octave as the interval (or unison on the two upper courses). When playing a particular interval between two strings, that relationship remains the same as you progress up the fretboard, as in barre chords. With whistles, you're actually playing two different scales. You can run into the same problem with the mountain dulcimer. Even though the strings are tuned to specific intervals when open, the fretboard is diatonic, and the intervals don't necessarilly match up as you progress up the fretboard.

To build on what MT had said about playing harmonies in ITM, it's not done as part of the tradition at sessions, but it occurs in IFM and other folk forms where you'll hear a whistle playing harmony or counterpoint to the vocal line. Not too often with two whistles together though, and almost never in an ITM session.

[TheSpoonMan]

It's more a monophonic tradition, although playing in parallel octaves is not uncommon in some parts.

You're always playing an octave if you play a high whistle with any other instrument (except a high D harmonica- ew). A low D would put you at unison.

[TheSpoonMan]

It's more a monophonic tradition, although playing in parallel octaves is not uncommon in some parts.

You're always playing an octave if you play a high whistle with any other instrument (except a high D harmonica- ew). A low D would put you at unison.

[srt19170]

The D whistle is the standard not because most things are in D (they're not necessarily) but because it's the "concert pitch" or "non-transposing" instrument. That is, when you play note X on the D whistle, it's the same letter-name note as on the piano, flute, fiddle/violin, recorder, glockenspiel, etc.

That's true, but only because when people learn tinwhistle, they learn on a D whistle, and they're taught that all fingers down is D. You could just as well learn on a C whistle, and learn that all fingers down is C. You'd learn to play (non-transposed) music notated in C, and when you played a D whistle you'd be transposing the music written in C to D. (Of course, that's true of all transposing instruments.)

The "key" thing here is that whistles are are diatonic -- they only play in one (two) key(s). To play in other keys, we switch whistles. Rather than learn different fingerings for every key/whistle combination, we just learn one fingering ("D/G" by tradition) and then to play a different key, we switch whistles but keep the sheet music the same.

[HampshireWhistler]

The "key" thing here is that whistles are are diatonic -- they only play in one (two) key(s). To play in other keys, we switch whistles. Rather than learn different fingerings for every key/whistle combination, we just learn one fingering ("D/G" by tradition) and then to play a different key, we switch whistles but keep the sheet music the same.

It isn't very difficult to play in the key of A on a D whistle either. There's only one half hole/cross fingering technique needed to get the G sharp.

[MTGuru]

Eh - so a D-whistle is non-transposing, but any other key is transposing??? Or am I misunderstanding something here?

Yes, that's correct. That's the most common way to think about it, and your understanding is fine!

And just to check my thinking here about transposing etc. - The D is non-transposing because when I learned the dots, I see a D and finger a D and get a D (etc.) on a D whistle, but if I pick up that WW A whistle I'm waiting for, I'll see a D, finger a D and I'll get an A.

So it's really my brain, or rather my learning that makes the D concert and the A transposing? In other words, if I had learnt to see an A, and put all fingers over the holes and get and A, then the A whistle would be concert and the D would be transposing?

So, given my "non-transposed learning" is on a D whistle, to play an A tune on an A whistle (by the dots) I would transpose the A tune into D with the whizzy software that will do that for me, pick up my A whistle, and pretend I'm playing my D while I sight read the tune.

Yes, Carey, that's all correct. By George, you've got it.

You're always playing an octave if you play a high whistle with any other instrument (except a high D harmonica- ew). A low D would put you at unison.

Yes, of course. But by parallel octaves I meant two of the same instrument (or same range instrument) playing the same tune an octave apart -- as in Donegal fiddle tradition where this is sometimes called "reversing". Particularly in A tunes based on GHB originals where the range doesn't extend below second-string A, and it's possible for a second fiddle to double the melody an octave below without folding.

That's true, but only because when people learn tinwhistle, they learn on a D whistle, and they're taught that all fingers down is D. You could just as well learn on a C whistle, and learn that all fingers down is C.

Yes and no. Obviously, the designation of notes/names/fingerings is just a matter of agreed-on convention. But the D whistle fingering is a nearly universal convention across all woodwind instruments. Six fingers down gives a note called "D" on: uilleann pipes, Irish flute, concert Boehm flute, piccolo, fife, soprano recorder, tenor recorder, oboe, saxophone, clarinet (upper register) ... etc. It's the fact that the D whistle conforms to this nearly universal convention that makes it the standard.

[Denny]

gettin' slippery, MT