What's in a name?
- straycat82
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What's in a name?
Okay, this post may sound like I'm complaining or upset but don't read it that way because I'm not. I'm just thinking out loud about something I've pondered from time to time and I am curious about the different points of view that some of you may have to offer... if you have the patience to read ahead.
My name is John Kerr, as is my father's, his father's, and his father before. I have gone by "Johnny" since I was a teenager. This is partly because there are too many John's in the world (or at least where I live) which made classrooms and especially family get-togethers particularly confusing at times... beyond that, many people thought (myself included) that "Johnny" suited me better. My Dad and Grandfather (I didn't know Great Granddad) are both very serious individuals in terms of personality. My grandfather is getting a little nutty at times in his old age but for the most part, they're both your typical man's man who show little emotion outside of hollering at the TV during a ball game
Then I came a long, an artist and a musician with little insterest in the ball game, and decided to go by Johnny instead. Now for my point:
For some reason many people , especially certain age groups (ahem, the elderly) REFUSE to call me Johnny. I don't know if it's a matter of what they think is appropriate or proper but they won't do it. They call me John almost every time. I've also met many sweet older women throughout the years who insist on calling me Johnathan. Though I do realize that John, or Jon, can be short for Johnathan, or Jonathan, my name is not Johnathan, my birth certificate reads "John (middle name) Kerr". I will literally hand people my business card that reads in plain bold letters "Johnny Kerr" and more often than not they will read it, look me dead in the eye and say "thank you, John." I'm just baffled by it. The "proper" bit is the only theory I've come up with so far... mabe some see Johnny as more of a nickname or a chummy name and find it inappropriate in the business or casual acquaintance world?
Now here's my thought process on that: I was always taught as a child that you do not call a person by their first name unless you are either well acquainted with the person or you are introduced with a first name and therefore given the casual permission to call them as such. Otherwise it was Mr., Ms. or Mrs. so and so. Now, that being said, if someone introduced himself to me as Bobby, I wouldn't turn around and call him "Robert" or "Bob" because how do I know that Bobby isn't his proper birth name? More likely than not it is Robert, it's not a ridiculous assumption to make. Nevertheless, I would call him by the exact name that I was casually given permission to call him. That's just logical to me.
BTW, I've never once complained or made a fuss about this, I just smile and be polite. It doesn't even bother me really, just makes me curious.
What do the C&F Pub citizens think?
My name is John Kerr, as is my father's, his father's, and his father before. I have gone by "Johnny" since I was a teenager. This is partly because there are too many John's in the world (or at least where I live) which made classrooms and especially family get-togethers particularly confusing at times... beyond that, many people thought (myself included) that "Johnny" suited me better. My Dad and Grandfather (I didn't know Great Granddad) are both very serious individuals in terms of personality. My grandfather is getting a little nutty at times in his old age but for the most part, they're both your typical man's man who show little emotion outside of hollering at the TV during a ball game
Then I came a long, an artist and a musician with little insterest in the ball game, and decided to go by Johnny instead. Now for my point:
For some reason many people , especially certain age groups (ahem, the elderly) REFUSE to call me Johnny. I don't know if it's a matter of what they think is appropriate or proper but they won't do it. They call me John almost every time. I've also met many sweet older women throughout the years who insist on calling me Johnathan. Though I do realize that John, or Jon, can be short for Johnathan, or Jonathan, my name is not Johnathan, my birth certificate reads "John (middle name) Kerr". I will literally hand people my business card that reads in plain bold letters "Johnny Kerr" and more often than not they will read it, look me dead in the eye and say "thank you, John." I'm just baffled by it. The "proper" bit is the only theory I've come up with so far... mabe some see Johnny as more of a nickname or a chummy name and find it inappropriate in the business or casual acquaintance world?
Now here's my thought process on that: I was always taught as a child that you do not call a person by their first name unless you are either well acquainted with the person or you are introduced with a first name and therefore given the casual permission to call them as such. Otherwise it was Mr., Ms. or Mrs. so and so. Now, that being said, if someone introduced himself to me as Bobby, I wouldn't turn around and call him "Robert" or "Bob" because how do I know that Bobby isn't his proper birth name? More likely than not it is Robert, it's not a ridiculous assumption to make. Nevertheless, I would call him by the exact name that I was casually given permission to call him. That's just logical to me.
BTW, I've never once complained or made a fuss about this, I just smile and be polite. It doesn't even bother me really, just makes me curious.
What do the C&F Pub citizens think?
- Redwolf
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I agree that you should use whatever name the person gave upon introducing himself. Insisting on using something else is just plain rude.
We have several in our family that face a similar situation. For example, on my side of the family is a Ray (not Raymond), a Jon (not Jonathan, and no "h"), a "Denny" (not Dennis), a "Bob" (not Robert) and a "Ben" (not Benjamin). In my husband's family, he (John Anthony) is known as "Tony," his dad (John Lewis) is known as "John" (or "Johnny" among people he knew growing up), and his grandfather (John Henry) is "John Henry." Poor Tony had a heck of a time growing up with people calling him "John" or, when he explained that he went by "Tony" insisting on calling him "Anthony."
I too grew up not using a first name until I felt familiar enough with the person to do so (or until invited to do so), and still find the "instant familiarity" of people I barely know using my first name unsettling. You know, when you're in the doctor's office and the nurses all insist on calling you by your first name rather than "Mr./Mrs/Miss so-and-so"? Drives me up a wall!
Another name "pet peeve" I have is people shortening my name (my real name, that is. I don't mind people shortening "Redwolf" to "Red." In fact, I rather like it). "Audrey" isn't that hard to say, and "Aud" (especially spoken with an American accent) is horrendous...not to mention unacceptably familiar. I tolerate it from my family, but that's it.
Redwolf
We have several in our family that face a similar situation. For example, on my side of the family is a Ray (not Raymond), a Jon (not Jonathan, and no "h"), a "Denny" (not Dennis), a "Bob" (not Robert) and a "Ben" (not Benjamin). In my husband's family, he (John Anthony) is known as "Tony," his dad (John Lewis) is known as "John" (or "Johnny" among people he knew growing up), and his grandfather (John Henry) is "John Henry." Poor Tony had a heck of a time growing up with people calling him "John" or, when he explained that he went by "Tony" insisting on calling him "Anthony."
I too grew up not using a first name until I felt familiar enough with the person to do so (or until invited to do so), and still find the "instant familiarity" of people I barely know using my first name unsettling. You know, when you're in the doctor's office and the nurses all insist on calling you by your first name rather than "Mr./Mrs/Miss so-and-so"? Drives me up a wall!
Another name "pet peeve" I have is people shortening my name (my real name, that is. I don't mind people shortening "Redwolf" to "Red." In fact, I rather like it). "Audrey" isn't that hard to say, and "Aud" (especially spoken with an American accent) is horrendous...not to mention unacceptably familiar. I tolerate it from my family, but that's it.
Redwolf
...agus déanfaidh mé do mholadh ar an gcruit a Dhia, a Dhia liom!
- emmline
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When I was in high school, I had a friend whose parents were named Jimmy and Patsy. Those were their given names. Everyone, of course, assumed otherwise.
If you handed me a business card that said Johnny on it, I would call you Johnny. Or Mr. Kerr.
I think what you're experiencing is that people tend to default to names with which they are most familiar. They don't know many adults called Johnny, but they know many Johns, and that's where their brains take them.
My last name is Clement. Many people have heard of the same last name with an "s" appended, so it is very very difficult for them to not say Clements. I often say, "Clement. No s."
If you handed me a business card that said Johnny on it, I would call you Johnny. Or Mr. Kerr.
I think what you're experiencing is that people tend to default to names with which they are most familiar. They don't know many adults called Johnny, but they know many Johns, and that's where their brains take them.
My last name is Clement. Many people have heard of the same last name with an "s" appended, so it is very very difficult for them to not say Clements. I often say, "Clement. No s."
- straycat82
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That makes sense to me and is probably why I've not become offended by it. I figure, especially with the elderly, they may not feel familiar or comfortable enough to add the "y" onto a name (Bobby, Johnny, Jimmy, Tommy, etc.) because it sounds too much like what you'd call your nephew or college buddy.emmline wrote:I think what you're experiencing is that people tend to default to names with which they are most familiar. They don't know many adults called Johnny, but they know many Johns, and that's where their brains take them.
The Johnathan bit is still just weird to me though, why create the extra work for yourself of pronouncing two extra syllables?
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Like you, I generally call people whatever they prefer to be called. If somebody told me his name was Bobby, I wouldn't call him Rob!
I have four close friends all with the same common name (Kimberly) and that gets hella confusing sometimes. One of them does not like to be called Kim, but people do it all the time.
It's very interesting to know the ways names and their conventions affect different people.
I have four close friends all with the same common name (Kimberly) and that gets hella confusing sometimes. One of them does not like to be called Kim, but people do it all the time.
It's interesting the way you point out the "Mr./Mrs." thing. In my (Quaker) culture, it's considered rude to call somebody "Mister" or "Misses." The common thing to do is to use the first and last name, so instead of calling somebody "Mr. Wisely," we'd call him "Dale Wisely" or if there are issues that somebody prefers to be called "Doctor" or "Reverend" or won't give their first name or somesuch, we resort to simply calling the person "Friend." I do this all the time without thinking about it, and my (non-Quaker) friends have made fun of me for calling people I just met "Friend." It's just a kind of second-nature thing. We don't use the titles "Mr./Mrs./Dr./Rev./etc" because that's considered placing one person above all the others, and an affront to social equality.straycat82 wrote: Now here's my thought process on that: I was always taught as a child that you do not call a person by their first name unless you are either well acquainted with the person or you are introduced with a first name and therefore given the casual permission to call them as such. Otherwise it was Mr., Ms. or Mrs. so and so. Now, that being said, if someone introduced himself to me as Bobby, I wouldn't turn around and call him "Robert" or "Bob" because how do I know that Bobby isn't his proper birth name? More likely than not it is Robert, it's not a ridiculous assumption to make. Nevertheless, I would call him by the exact name that I was casually given permission to call him. That's just logical to me.
BTW, I've never once complained or made a fuss about this, I just smile and be polite. It doesn't even bother me really, just makes me curious.
What do the C&F Pub citizens think?
It's very interesting to know the ways names and their conventions affect different people.
- Coffee
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My full legal firstname is Chris. Not 'Christopher,' not 'Christoph,' 'Christian,' 'Crisdean,' or any other variation. Just 'Chris.' I've had so many headaches because of that.
"Yes... yes. This is a fertile land, and we will thrive. We will rule over all this land, and we will call it... This Land."
- missy
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My "real" name is Melissa. Even when I was in trouble, my mom didn't call me Melissa. I do sign checks and things with Melissa, but for almost all purposes, everyone knows me as "Missy". In fact, if someone addresses me as "Melissa" - it usually takes me a couple of seconds to realize they are speaking to me!
I'm used to last names getting murdered. My maiden name is Hauck - and even in a town with the German heritage that Cincinnati has, that one would get crucified. Mispronounced - "hawk", "hock" - mispelled, what have you.
First married name was Kling. You would have thought that would be easier - NOT. I got King and Kline more often than not.
With Strothers, it usually is ok, although we get a lot of Struthers. But Tom's dad and one sister were the only two in the family that had the "s" at the end of the name on their birth certificates, the rest of the brothers and sisters are just "Strother". Of course, Tom's dad's name on his birth certificate is also "James" and he's always been known as "Bill" (I guess it's a West Virginia thing!).
I'm used to last names getting murdered. My maiden name is Hauck - and even in a town with the German heritage that Cincinnati has, that one would get crucified. Mispronounced - "hawk", "hock" - mispelled, what have you.
First married name was Kling. You would have thought that would be easier - NOT. I got King and Kline more often than not.
With Strothers, it usually is ok, although we get a lot of Struthers. But Tom's dad and one sister were the only two in the family that had the "s" at the end of the name on their birth certificates, the rest of the brothers and sisters are just "Strother". Of course, Tom's dad's name on his birth certificate is also "James" and he's always been known as "Bill" (I guess it's a West Virginia thing!).
- Coffee
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Oh, I didn't want to start on last names, but...
Mine is 'Abernethy.' That's the correct spelling of that name, based upon the historical records, the town south of Perth, the Abernethy Forest, etc. And yet, everywhere I go, no matter how precisely I annunciate the 'e,' people will insist on spelling it 'Abernathy.'
I simply cannot comprehend that.
I sometimes consider changing it back to the pre-anglicised version just to reeeaaally mess with folks...
Mine is 'Abernethy.' That's the correct spelling of that name, based upon the historical records, the town south of Perth, the Abernethy Forest, etc. And yet, everywhere I go, no matter how precisely I annunciate the 'e,' people will insist on spelling it 'Abernathy.'
I simply cannot comprehend that.
I sometimes consider changing it back to the pre-anglicised version just to reeeaaally mess with folks...
"Yes... yes. This is a fertile land, and we will thrive. We will rule over all this land, and we will call it... This Land."
- straycat82
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Oh, I'm the same way. If someone is looking me in the face and calls me John then I usually get it but if you come up beside me or from behind and audibly say, "JOHN", then even if my ears hear it my brain just doesn't register it. That's how far detached I am from that name, it just doesn't feel like me. I'm more inclined to search the room for my Dad when I hear that name then to turn around myselfmissy wrote:In fact, if someone addresses me as "Melissa" - it usually takes me a couple of seconds to realize they are speaking to me!
I always make an effort to call a person the name that they tell me they use.
Sometimes they'll tell me a name obviously Americanized. I'll ask them if they've Americanized it and if so I'll ask them what their name used to be. If I can pronounce it, I might use the name to address them but I'll introduce them to others using the Americanized name.
Its not unusual for students in classes I've taken to suggest a nick name they wish to be called when the teacher is taking role call the first day. I've noticed the teachers always call the student what they've been asked to be called.
When I worked for the Fed. gov. a lot of my co-workers were from the South and we often used the Southern custom of addressing each other as Miss. or Mr. and then the person's first name (instead of last name).
Someone calling you a name other than the name you've given them to call you by tells you a bit about them, doesn't it.
Sometimes they'll tell me a name obviously Americanized. I'll ask them if they've Americanized it and if so I'll ask them what their name used to be. If I can pronounce it, I might use the name to address them but I'll introduce them to others using the Americanized name.
Its not unusual for students in classes I've taken to suggest a nick name they wish to be called when the teacher is taking role call the first day. I've noticed the teachers always call the student what they've been asked to be called.
When I worked for the Fed. gov. a lot of my co-workers were from the South and we often used the Southern custom of addressing each other as Miss. or Mr. and then the person's first name (instead of last name).
Someone calling you a name other than the name you've given them to call you by tells you a bit about them, doesn't it.
- BillChin
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I started using Bill after a high school teacher called me that. All my friends before high school know me as William.
Names are powerful as are nicknames. A person that is called Billy will have a very different experience in life than a person that goes by William. I believe there is a great deal of power in the ability to name a person.
Most folks use what they are comfortable with. If all they know are other John's they probably won't take the trouble to use Johnny or Jonathan. Some folks are good with names, but maybe only about 10%. The rest muddle by, and it is good that they can remember any name, or any part of a name.
Some folks with clever names go their entire lives having to correct the spelling or pronunciation. I knew a Stefani (I think that is right). Anyway, it was always Stephanie, or Stefanie, or one of the other possible combos that was wrong.
Names are powerful as are nicknames. A person that is called Billy will have a very different experience in life than a person that goes by William. I believe there is a great deal of power in the ability to name a person.
Most folks use what they are comfortable with. If all they know are other John's they probably won't take the trouble to use Johnny or Jonathan. Some folks are good with names, but maybe only about 10%. The rest muddle by, and it is good that they can remember any name, or any part of a name.
Some folks with clever names go their entire lives having to correct the spelling or pronunciation. I knew a Stefani (I think that is right). Anyway, it was always Stephanie, or Stefanie, or one of the other possible combos that was wrong.
- djm
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I can see someone being uncomfortable with calling you Johnny. It is not a proper name. It is a diminuitive nickname for a small child named John. It can entail feelings that they are talking down to you, or are a family member who is very closely associated with you and your history. I can see who that could put people off, so they restort to calling you John. If you really want to give people a handle for you that is not too childish or familiar, but is not as formal or conflicting as John, why not use another common nickname for John, which is Jack?
Ben, Bob, Denny, Danny etc. are nicknames, not proper names. I can see how people who are no longer associated with the culture from which their names came from might understandably come to think that nicknames are full and correct names. I suspect its a form of language drift. Old names fall out of use and new ones come in, even in the parent culture, but for a breakaway culture, how much further would things like accents and names drift? Fodder for linguists, no doubt.
djm
Ben, Bob, Denny, Danny etc. are nicknames, not proper names. I can see how people who are no longer associated with the culture from which their names came from might understandably come to think that nicknames are full and correct names. I suspect its a form of language drift. Old names fall out of use and new ones come in, even in the parent culture, but for a breakaway culture, how much further would things like accents and names drift? Fodder for linguists, no doubt.
djm
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- pipersgrip
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my name is Jon, and i am a preschool teacher. i have gone by Jonny before, by some people. the preschool kids insist on calling me Mr.Jonny, and that doesnt bother me one bit. but the older people there get on to the children for calling me that, most call me Jon, and some call me Jonathan which is my real name. in school, i always wanted to be called Jon, but my teachers always called my Jonathan, so i know how you feel in a way.
"In prayer, it is better to have a heart without words, than words without a heart." John Bunyan