OT: What happened to poetry?

The Ultimate On-Line Whistle Community. If you find one more ultimater, let us know.
User avatar
LeeMarsh
Posts: 1284
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2001 6:00 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Location: Odenton, MD (Wash-Baltimore Area)

Post by LeeMarsh »

I don't believe that we have become 'dumber'.

I think that technology and what is known has increase by an order of magnitude in the past few decades. Look at your parents high school text books and then look at your children's or grand-children's. The mass of knowledge and learning needed to be effective in today's society has increased year after year. I'm not sure its as simple as folks not learning to speak more formal english, as much as having to learn so much of everything else.

Civilization on a global scale is making accommodations for the information overload. This has had an impact not only on our teaching and learning english but on the value of formal english in society. For more and more folks there is a feeling that they can't know enough. We are incresingly dependent on things we can't understand. It is not that those things can't be understood, it is simply that we no longer have the time to learn all that is known or all that we even need to know.

For me, I think its part of the reason we see such an outpouring artistic forms. I think the expansion of styles, genres, forms, area's of art, formal and informal, is because folks are trying to make connections and find meaning. If I look at just the types of music in America, classical, blues, jazz, hip hop, blue grass, country and western, cajon, irish, hard rock, soft rock, metal, punk, hip-hop, rap, old-time, techno, reggae, R&B, disco & dance, gospel, show tunes, punk rock, new wave, ska, latin, african, world beat,
just to start the list. Most of us can find a tune, song, that will remind us of still another genre. All this music flurishing in our culture, mixing, defining, expressing, connecting us. I think this is in part a response to the fact that no sane person thinks they can know enough to make sense of everything that is happening. So we find that sense of meaning not in our cognative abilities but rather in our art.

With globalization, as it becomes more important to communicate with everyone, it also becomes more important to communicate with those close to us, our neigbor hood, social group, family. With the rise of a global economies we also are seeing the rise of global social and political structures, being part of a family, a neighborhood, a social or other small group is manageable. Being a single member in a society of 6-8 billion holds no meaning for many, and yet today we find we must find meaning for membership in global structures. As the pressure to become a miniscule part of the mass (6-8 billion) increases, I'd expect a balancing pressure for the individual to also re-affirm his connections to smaller worlds. In connecting to local structures, family, friends, neighborhoods, learning to speak their english instead of the king's english, becomes more important. The farther away we feel from the king the less important his formalities seem, at least for the king's english.

I guess, what I'm trying to say is that science and technology has given us so much more to learn, including communication technology that give us so many more to learn it with and about. Even if we don't know as much about some areas, such as formal grammer, as previous generations, we still have so much more to learn about everything.

I hope this makes some sense to some folks. Maybe it just my inclinations that grew from formative years that included books like <u>Future Shock</u> and <u>Stranger in a Strange Land</u>.

In my view, it takes more that head space these days to survive. These days heart space is at a premium and one way to expand that is to ...

_________________
Image Enjoy Your Music,<br><br><b>Lee Marsh</b><br>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: LeeMarsh on 2002-10-15 16:10 ]</font>
C4
Posts: 146
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2002 6:00 pm

Post by C4 »

If I may step in and sound stupid for one minute please...I think the death of Art and Poetry is a direct result of our public schools. Our kids spend 6 or more hours a day in class being force fed what others think they should learn and then come home exhausted and spent only to be faced with more homework...How can anyone find themselves? How can they indulge thier whims and chase thier dreams or ambitions. The creativity of these young minds is being squashed in school..And it is only going to get worse..My dh works for a school district that as already disposed of all shop classes(Art, metal,wood, auto) to make room for computers. Of course there will always be the few who are able to make it through the system without thoroughly losing themselves but to many will come out as robots geared for working in an assembly line atmosphere....So There. I've said my piece...Whatcha think???
susnfx
Posts: 4245
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2002 6:00 pm
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Salt Lake City

Post by susnfx »

A stupendously funny look at "art" by Dave Barry:

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/li ... 213398.htm

(hope that works)

Susan
User avatar
blackhawk
Posts: 3116
Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2002 6:00 pm
antispam: No
Location: California

Post by blackhawk »

On 2002-10-15 16:39, susnfx wrote:
A stupendously funny look at "art" by Dave Barry:

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/li ... 213398.htm

(hope that works)

Susan
This is great, Susan! I love Dave Barry!
garycrosby
Posts: 575
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2001 6:00 pm

Post by garycrosby »

I guess its easy for most of us (myself included) to sit around, discuss, and lament about western society's apparent "loss of culture" but I don't think complaining is going to change anything. We can blame it on the mass media, or big corporations, or Walmart, or the school system, or whatever we want to but the situation will not improve until corrective action is taken. There is nothing wrong with discussion. Discussion helps identify the issues and helps like minded people find each other but, other than that, discussion accomplishes little -- just think about at all those government reports that dicuss issues to death but never lead to action. I guess my point is that until people take action to improve culture in our communities or countries then things will only get worse.

In fact, discussion without action may actually make us feel more helpless. Stephen R. Covey said that it is the nature of human beings to act rather than be acted upon. Acting empowers us and builds our character; on the other hand, allowing ourselves to be acted upon builds nothing but discouragement and stress. I believe that his theory is fundamentally true.

The most obvious way to act is to support support music, art, and literature financially. Perhaps you don't have a king's ransom to shell out on purchases but I think most people can scrape up a few bucks now and then to go to a play, or to buy a locally published book, or whatever. A few years ago at Thanksgiving, my wife and I went to a play and dinner at a "barnyard playhouse" in a small town near my city -- it was a bargain at only $25 CDN ($15 US) each and it was a fantastic time :smile: As I write this I ask myself, why I haven't been back?" Sadly, I can think of lots of lame excuses but not a single good reason.

But, if you don't have any money then attend book readings, or community concerts, or volunteer time at a local school to help out with an art class -- these are all free.

Regardless, if you have some artistic, literary, or musical talent then use that talent at what ever level you feel comfortable and then some. Maybe its playing at a session, maybe its writing short stories and e-mailing them to your friends even if you think they suck (your stories, not your friends), maybe its painting a giant pig sculpture as part of a fundraiser for a local charitable organization (my wife did that this year see http://www.pigsinthecity.com), maybe its starting a band or sending to your friend a free MP3 of some IRTrad tune you finally mastered. Heck, assemble a CD of whistle tunes you can play, burn them to CD (assuming they are public domain tunes), and mail them out with your Christmas cards. Maybe you could publish a book of poems (like our own Anna Martinez), or publish a book of trad tunes (like our own Greg McMahon), or paint a picture for your granny, or publish the next "great American novel"?

Frankly, I think many people have a lot more talent than they think they do -- it's their lack of self-confidence and motivation that holds them back. But, don't let your talent go to waste. For example, in 1996 I watched a Canadian TV show about entrepreneurs called "Venture". This particular episode profiled the, at the time, largely unknown Loreena McKennitt working her butt off trying to promote her music (yes, I know many of you don't like her music but we could probably agree that its better than most of the crap you hear on the radio these days). In her early days she did not have a wad of cash to promote her music nor was her music particularily trendy at the time. For all practical purposes, the odds were pretty much stacked against her. Yet, she became a success because of talent and hard work -- she dined with the Queen last week. My goodness, what a loss it would have been if she had given up or had never started in the first place.

I am of the opinion that one person *can* make a difference. Sadly, most of us (including myself) choose not to make a difference through our own inaction. Nike (as much as I loathe the company) had it right all along, "Just do it".

Thanks for listening :smile:
User avatar
Gary
Posts: 316
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2002 6:00 pm
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: SoCal

Post by Gary »

A wonderful post and discussion. One could substitute the word "poetry" with "music" or "lyrics" or "art" and come to many of the same conclusions.

As a composer, I struggle with this stuff, too. So, substitute "poetry" for "music" as you read the following.

Gary

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

You've got to find some way of saying it without saying it. – Duke Ellington

Making music should not be left to the professionals. Good songs write themselves. We're lucky enough to take the credit.- Danielle Egnew

Do not under estimate heart & desire because anything is possible if you work hard enough at it – Alan Troxell
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you are a songwriter, or aspire to be one, I want to tell you what I so strongly believe: only you can write the songs you write.

Many of us are tempted to write within a formula or to "craft" a hit song. There is great strength in structure and timing, so I endorse obedience to the internal rules of each song. But that's not the same as formulaic writing.

What you really have to offer is YOUR unique vision. Please give us this gift. We need it. – Patti Witten
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Music is eternity, so keep it melodic. – Dominick Bianco

Write a song that you know won't sell. This will help you truly clear out your emotional closet. – Danielle Egnew

No artist is pleased...there is no satisfaction whatever at any time. There is only a strange, divine dissatisfaction, a blessed unrest that keeps us marching and makes us more alive than the others. – Martha Graham

Too many pieces of music finish too long after the end. – Igor Stravinsky

Let music compose itself. Just guide it. – Gagnez LeJeu

When you make music you are acting as a philosopher. You can either do that consciously or you can do it unconsciously, but you're doing it. – John Cage

Composition is a way of living out your philosophy and calling it art. – Brian Eno

Lyrics run out after the melody like children after an ice cream truck. – Danielle Egnew

Music is that which sustains you, expressed as sound. – Peter De Baets

Having no silence in music is like having no black or white in a painting.
- Brian Eno

What has worked before is never as good as something that has never been tried before, even if it doesn't work. – Jimmy Webb

Channel music. Don't make it. The water from the river is more alive than the water from the bottle. – Danielle Egnew

Time is the musicians' canvas – cruzbeatz

Music is the language that can only be heard when you get your own thoughts out of the way. – Danielle Egnew

Your responsibility is to tell the truth, not the facts, necessarily. It could be the facts, but it's basically the truth. That means being a truthful person.

You can't tell the truth in your work if you don't tell the truth in your life. So I encourage you to be scrupulous in your truth ethic.

Even when no one's looking - especially when no one's looking. Just for yourself. – Rosanne Cash

Talk doesn't cook rice. – Chinese Proverb

A composer is a guy who goes around forcing his will on unsuspecting air molecules, often with the assistance of unsuspecting musicians. – Frank Zappa

Without writing bad songs, how could any of us have a sense of self-esteem when we write good ones? A bad song in your catalogue is a shot in the arm later. – Danielle Egnew

Truly write a song about your mother. And then see if you can get though it without crying. – Danielle Egnew

Do not under estimate heart & desire because anything is possible if you work hard enough at it – Alan Troxell

In your music, do not strive to write what sells. Strive to write the most accurate representation of what you are. You are unique enough to sell. – Danielle Egnew

Why do they use an axe when a hatchet would work as well? – Confucius

Silence is very important. The silence between the notes are as important as the notes themselves. – Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart

I don't write my songs - they write me. – David Williams

The question is, "What are you saying with the guitar?" - Not "Can you play this lick?" or "What's your speed like?" It's, "What are you saying with your instrument? What is being communicated in this song?" – The Edge, U2

Every real creation of art is independent, more powerful than the artist himself and returns to the Divine through its manifestation. It is one with man only in this, that it bears testimony to the mediation of the Divine in him. – Beethoven

There's nothing worse than a brilliant beginning. – Pablo Picasso

The act of listening is in fact an act of composing. – John Cage

If you are a songwriter, or aspire to be one, I want to tell you what I so strongly believe: only you can write the songs you write.

Many of us are tempted to write within a formula or to "craft" a hit song. There is great strength in structure and timing, so I endorse obedience to the internal rules of each song. But that's not the same as formulaic writing.

What you really have to offer is YOUR unique vision. Please give us this gift. We need it. – Patti Witten

The mind must be trained to follow the flow of the heart's river. – Michael Hedges

Music is the language that can only be heard when you get your own thoughts out of the way. – Danielle Egnew

Trained vocalists have an amazing way of cracking crystal. Passionate vocalists have an amazing way of cracking hearts. – Danielle Egnew

Give thanks to God, however you understand Him, for your music successes. After all, it's his language you're cashing in on. – Danielle Egnew

Creating your image requires looking outside yourself. Creating your music requires looking inside yourself. In entertainment, we are no different than the Campbell's Soup Can, where the outside sells the inside. – Danielle Egnew

If you can't write anymore right now, don't worry. You're not supposed to write anymore right now. – Danielle Egnew

Do not be afraid to be yourself. An image will crumble under the first sign of weight without some truth in its construction. – Danielle Egnew
User avatar
Bloomfield
Posts: 8225
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2001 6:00 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Location: Location: Location:

Post by Bloomfield »

OK, while we're all wondering who Michael Hedges is, I recommend heading over for fine piece of modern poetry I just posted there. Not mine unfortunately. It's educational, it rhymes, and it mentions whiskey. Like all poetry should.

http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php ... &forum=1&1
/Bloomfield
User avatar
LeeMarsh
Posts: 1284
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2001 6:00 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Location: Odenton, MD (Wash-Baltimore Area)

Post by LeeMarsh »

<u>Everyone Has It - It Has Everyone.</s>

Music
is that which,
from the heart,
must get out.

The poet in each
finds words to release
the well spring
in lyric intent.

That which remains,
no word to contain,
tunes poem
to heartsong

T'is Music
again.
Enjoy Your Music,
Lee Marsh
From Odenton, MD.
User avatar
Walden
Chiffmaster General
Posts: 11030
Joined: Thu May 09, 2002 6:00 pm
antispam: No
Location: Coal mining country in the Eastern Oklahoma hills.
Contact:

Post by Walden »

On 2002-10-15 16:37, C4 wrote:
If I may step in and sound stupid for one minute please...I think the death of Art and Poetry is a direct result of our public schools.
Amen. And most private and religious schools as well.
Our kids spend 6 or more hours a day in class being force fed what others think they should learn and then come home exhausted and spent only to be faced with more homework...How can anyone find themselves?
It is a system of rote memorization that usually results in nothing more than students memorizing what they need to know to pass the test, and then replacing the information with the next 9-weeks' list. Very little retention of what is "learned" by this method.
How can they indulge thier whims and chase thier dreams or ambitions. The creativity of these young minds is being squashed in school..And it is only going to get worse..
That is a sad prognosis. How do you know it will get worse?
My dh works for a school district that as already disposed of all shop classes(Art, metal,wood, auto) to make room for computers. Of course there will always be the few who are able to make it through the system without thoroughly losing themselves but to many will come out as robots geared for working in an assembly line atmosphere....So There.
Our state upped the number of courses required, thinking that would crank out super students. The teachers were overburdened, the students were overburdened, and the parents, grandparents, and families were overburdened. Everyone thinks more dollars and more homework will cure education's woes. But it won't.
I've said my piece...Whatcha think???
I blame the "New Math." Notice the decline in society in the decades since its introduction. :smile:

_________________
<a href="http://www.boomspeed.com/walden/index.h ... igline.jpg[/img]</a>
<FONT SIZE=1><B>"there's no noun which can't be verbed"</b><font color="white">

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Walden on 2002-10-16 11:29 ]</font>
User avatar
fiddling_tenor
Posts: 321
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2001 6:00 pm
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Out of my mind...back in five minutes
Contact:

Post by fiddling_tenor »

Walden and C4 have both hit on a big factor in the problem. I've already mentioned that kids are encouraged less to think creatively and originally and encouraged more to parrot what they've been taught to pass a test.

Kids spend more time in school, but are actually spending less time learning! My kids come home with stories of watching entertainment videos, or unscheduled "study halls" because the teacher didn't show up.

And the NEA wants a longer school day?! Or a longer school year?! The kids twiddle their thumbs the last two weeks of school because the teachers all have to submit the final grades downtown! So NO teaching occurs.

The problem is not a easy one to fix. So many things figure in the mix.
"Put": the act of placing something in a specific spot.
"Putt": the vain attempt to do the same thing.
User avatar
LeeMarsh
Posts: 1284
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2001 6:00 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Location: Odenton, MD (Wash-Baltimore Area)

Post by LeeMarsh »

Tom, Walden, C4,

I think we need to rethink and redesign our approach to education and identify the skills for the 21st century.

We need to get away from memorizing facts, figures, theories and teach usable skills.
  • How to work in a group or commitee.
  • How to participate in political processes.
  • How to research ideas and accumulate evidense using technology (internet etc).
  • How to get the most out of studying manuals.
  • How to effectively use CBT.
  • How to goal plan on an individual and group basis using measurable objectives.
  • How appreciate the diversity of propectives around us.
  • How to approach tasks that require creative or inovative thought and action.
  • Techniques to foster inovation in ourselves and others.
  • How to enrich leisure time activities to balance out the social/emotions/etc enrichment from vocational activities.
  • how to read and write critically
  • how to think logically and analytically
  • how deal effectivly with feelings, our own and others
  • How to establish support systems and networks
  • how to identify with the national priniciples and process in our society
  • how to effectively argue, how to fight fair, how to form a consensus.
  • <b>how to make learning a lifelong investment</b>
Maybe these things need to be uppermost instead memorizing a bunch of facts.

The explosion of information and technology in modern society will keep adding to the 'basic' knowledge approach until kids need fork lifts to carry their books back and forth to school, and leisure or family time will be prescribed because every minute not sleeping is consumed by homework. Perhaps we need to develop social, organizational, tactile manipulation, conceputalization, and other skills, instead of the old approach of Physic, chemistry, math, history, english, shop, art, music, language, and assorted subjects.

I'm not proposing doing away with current HS Curriculums. I'm proposing the we start to migrate towards establishing curriculums that kids will be able to complete 20 years from now. As knowledge expand exponentially each decade, we need to move to better approaches to acquire skills and to deal affectively with the knowedge requirements of life.

I think to be effective this approach will need to include all facits of life in the 21st century including the arts, leisure, vocational, and socio-political spheres.

And alway time to ...
Enjoy Your Music,
Lee Marsh
From Odenton, MD.
jim stone
Posts: 17193
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2001 6:00 pm

Post by jim stone »

But that was what education was
like when I was a kid. Also
we wore white shirts and red ties
and sat at our desks with
our hands folded. Public School
in the 40s. Once in assembly
there was a reading of
'The Owl and the Pussycat.'
I laughed for joy and was
disciplined.

But we grew up loving poetry.
I think it's the poets.
TelegramSam
Posts: 2258
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2001 6:00 pm
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Nashville, TN
Contact:

Post by TelegramSam »

EXACTLY.

I just came out of this "mill" that is the public education system and, after just half a semester in college, I can tell you it's no better here. Again, the Big Business is destroying our culture because schools are compelled to produce suitable workers, not artists. I can't really blame them though, they're trying to help by preparing students in order that they can get a job and support themselves, but in doing so, they do become a conformity factory churning out peons for corporations.

And they really have no choice. You have to eat. For example, I'm studying for a degree in graphic design. I don't want to sit around making ads and package designs or whatever all day, but there's really not much to do about it. If I could sit around painting all day and still be able to eat, that would be wonderful, but the world doesn't encourge that. Most artists make no money off their art unti they're dead (and fat lot of good that'll do them). Back in the renaissance, rich families would support the arts, but these days most people couldn't care less. If you aren't doing something considered "productive" then you are a "freeloader". Society today does not cnosider art a neccessity, and many people think it frivilous or a waste of time. Society does not promote the arts and that's all there is to it.

On 2002-10-15 16:37, C4 wrote:
If I may step in and sound stupid for one minute please...I think the death of Art and Poetry is a direct result of our public schools. Our kids spend 6 or more hours a day in class being force fed what others think they should learn and then come home exhausted and spent only to be faced with more homework...How can anyone find themselves? How can they indulge thier whims and chase thier dreams or ambitions. The creativity of these young minds is being squashed in school..And it is only going to get worse..My dh works for a school district that as already disposed of all shop classes(Art, metal,wood, auto) to make room for computers. Of course there will always be the few who are able to make it through the system without thoroughly losing themselves but to many will come out as robots geared for working in an assembly line atmosphere....So There. I've said my piece...Whatcha think???
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: TelegramSam on 2002-10-16 14:39 ]</font>
Michael Sullivan
Posts: 156
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2002 6:00 pm
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1

Post by Michael Sullivan »

This is in reply to Walden's question on the last page (I've just caught up, sorry for the late answer).

I don't think that's it's right to say that these poets are lying. Rather I think that truth and falsity don't apply to their works--many of them would insist on this loudly. But this is because deep down they don't believe that things are true or false, right or wrong. If it feels good, think it.

In a long list of quotes a bit back John Cage was represented as saying that when one composes music one is being a philosopher whether consciously or not. This is true for painting or literature or architecture or whatever. Cage is a particularly striking example because he embodies much of what I mean. The philosophy his music expresses is nihilism, one that does not believe in any truth or permanence. It's music you can't listen to and philosophy you can't believe if you want to stay sane or be happy. It's not even thought so much as the denial of the validity of thought.

I don't know if this is true, but I read a long time ago that John Cage was an avid mushroom collector. In an interview he was asked how this hobby fit in with his composing and he replied, "If I ate mushrooms like I composed my music I would be dead." That is, his philosophy was as unlivable as his music was ugly and unhearable.

This is the philosophy that has been promoted by intellectuals more and more for decades and which has seeped into modern thought and attitudes. Many people have never thought about it but it influences how they live, what they want, what they put in their poems and how.

Education of course is part of the problem and fixing it would be part of the answer, but that's another long and difficult subject and I'm not sure anyone wants to hear me going on about it.
User avatar
Walden
Chiffmaster General
Posts: 11030
Joined: Thu May 09, 2002 6:00 pm
antispam: No
Location: Coal mining country in the Eastern Oklahoma hills.
Contact:

Post by Walden »

Mayhaps I have given too many quick answers. I don't really suppose that the phenomena in question is all due to one factor alone (though the "New Math" no doubt damaged poetry :smile: ).

I have noticed that there is much more poetry read in church than there was in the 1970's and 1980's. So it could be on the comeback.

Not all poetry appeals to all people, any more than every food appeals to every person. At one time a person may want a limerick from the Book of Nonsense, and at another time a sonnet by Shakespeare (who I always had trouble reading, despite my fondness for Elisabethan English and old literature).

I do believe that it is important that we continue to expose students to the great writers and thinkers of the past. Without a proper foundation, and perspective, it is difficult to build solidly for the future.
Reasonable person
Walden
Post Reply