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Redwolf
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Post by Redwolf »

The Sporting Pitchfork wrote:According to the 2000 census figures, there are about 25,000 people who speak Irish in the home in the US.

For all the unfortunate experiences listed above. It should be noted that there are more native Irish speakers living in large cities like Dublin and Belfast now than there have been in perhaps as many as 200 years. It's just the fact that the Gaeltachtaí regions have continued to steadily shrink since independence that's really damnable.

I had a bit of atypical experience when I was living in Ireland as I lived in Dingle/An Daingean/Daingean Uí Chuis/whatever they're officially calling it now. I was in college at the time and I was friends with a number of high school students and university students home for the summer. They were all native Irish speakers (they'd switch to English for my benefit, though they were quite patient and obliging in letting me practice my meagre Irish skills with them). One of them went on to work for Raidió Na Gaeltachta, where she DJ'd a pop music program. All of the songs were, of course, in English.

Herein, I think, lies an interesting aspect of the problem. Young people like popular music & popular culture, as they're supposed to, and the vast majority of what's available to them is in English. I noticed this when on Skye in Scotland as well: children were quite happy to speak Gaelic with parents and teachers and some of them liked traditional music well enough, but what they really wanted to listen to--what they felt identification with were things like Oasis, Fatboy Slim and Robbie Williams (this was around 1998, by the way). It is a terrible shame that there aren't more musicians in Ireland trying to perform rock, pop, and hip-hop in Irish. There are undoubtedly people who could, but maybe they figure it wouldn't be a lucrative career move. Yet in Wales, there is a FANTASTIC, truly thrilling Welsh-medium popular music scene and it has arguably had a major effect on demonstrating to young Welsh people that Welsh can be vibrant, modern, and dare I say it, hip. I know of two punk bands and one electronica group that do all their vocals in Gaelic in Scotland. I'm not aware of any in Ireland (barring Kila, and I really don't think they count), though I'm sure there are maybe a handful of bands that do sing in Irish. I think that perhaps one of the most valuable things that could be done for the betterment of Irish at this point would be for the development of a viable popular music scene in Irish...Even if it results in some dreadful U2 or Coldplay wannabes wailing pathetically about how "nil sí i ngrá liom" or something like that, I think it might be worth it.
This is something that comes up on IGTF periodically as well, and it's a valid concern. In fact, RnaG's pop music program (Anocht FM) is the one program that's allowed to have songs in English, because there simply aren't enough popular songs in Irish (and not having a popular music show was seriously hurting the station's ratings). While popular music isn't my bag, I'd love to hear of some young people out there writing songs in Irish. The language wouldn't be a barrier to international recognition, even, if the MUSIC was good...look at all the non-English hits we've seen over the past 30 years or so.

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Wombat
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Post by Wombat »

Father Emmet wrote:
- old women smiled, tapping their feet merrily, as I serenaded them with filth.


:lol:
And thought to themselves: 'That fool thinks we don't understand.'
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Post by Wombat »

The Sporting Pitchfork wrote: Yet in Wales, there is a FANTASTIC, truly thrilling Welsh-medium popular music scene and it has arguably had a major effect on demonstrating to young Welsh people that Welsh can be vibrant, modern, and dare I say it, hip.
The guy who pioneered that was Meic Stevens. He could have been just about anything if he'd kept making records in English; he released one great English-language album, Outlander, in the late 60s and since then has recorded only in Welsh. His style was vaguely Dylan-influenced—Bob, not Thomas— but very much his own. I've been meaning to purchase his Welsh records to catch up. He's well worth a listen if you get the chance and Outlander was available last time I checked.
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Post by Jack »

Lucas wrote:
cowtime wrote:I am always amazed at folks who speak more than one language. I took French in high school, and use to be decent at translation, which is all we ever did, but to actually speak it? No way. Anyone who knows more than one language has my admiration and envy. I just can't even imagine what that must be like.

My hat's off to all ya'll who have that gift.
It's not a gift really. People from small languages (think Dutch, any of the Scandinavian or Baltic languages) have no choice. If they want access to knowledge and culture they simply have to know several languages. That's why you find a lot more Dutch, Danish and Swedish people who speak English than French, Spanish or Germans.

Luc ( a Dutch speaking Belgian, who speaks French and English on a daily basis, only not as good as he'd like)
This is true. I think immediately of Björk.
Cayden

Post by Cayden »

Not that Bjork is from any of the countries mentioned ofcourse
That's why you find a lot more Dutch, Danish and Swedish people who speak English than French, Spanish or Germans.
Some time ago the language institute of one of the Dutch universities (I think, I am going entirely by memory here, and a vague one at that) did a study comparing the use of other languages by people from different European countries. It turned out the Dutch think they are pretty much a population with great skills at speaking foreign languages. The reality was their control of a second language was far behind that of for example French or Germans.
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Post by djm »

Attitude is everything. :wink:

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Post by Jack »

Peter Laban wrote:Not that Bjork is from any of the countries mentioned ofcourse
Yes she is. She is Scandinavian (from Iceland) and speaks a small Scandinavian language (Icelandic), in addition to English (the world's lingua franca), as Luc said in his original reply. Here:
Lucas wrote: (think Dutch, any of the Scandinavian or Baltic languages)
She has also sang in French before.
Cayden

Post by Cayden »

Wikipedia wrote:Scandinavia is a historical and geographical region centered on the Scandinavian Peninsula in Northern Europe. It is most commonly defined as the three kingdoms that historically shared the Scandinavian Peninsula, namely Denmark, Norway and Sweden.

In linguistics and cultural studies, the definition of Scandinavia is expanded to include the areas where Old Norse was spoken and where the North Germanic languages are now dominant. As a linguistic and cultural concept, Scandinavia thus also includes Iceland and the Faroe Islands.[1]
I was thinking along the lines of the historic/geographic model. You weren't. So I suppose we're both right
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Post by Jack »

Peter Laban wrote:
Wikipedia wrote:Scandinavia is a historical and geographical region centered on the Scandinavian Peninsula in Northern Europe. It is most commonly defined as the three kingdoms that historically shared the Scandinavian Peninsula, namely Denmark, Norway and Sweden.

In linguistics and cultural studies, the definition of Scandinavia is expanded to include the areas where Old Norse was spoken and where the North Germanic languages are now dominant. As a linguistic and cultural concept, Scandinavia thus also includes Iceland and the Faroe Islands.[1]
I was thinking along the lines of the historic/geographic model. You weren't. So I suppose we're both right
Actually, I am thinking on the linguistic model since this whole discussion is about language in the first place.
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BigDavy
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Post by BigDavy »

Peter Laban wrote:
Wikipedia wrote:Scandinavia is a historical and geographical region centered on the Scandinavian Peninsula in Northern Europe. It is most commonly defined as the three kingdoms that historically shared the Scandinavian Peninsula, namely Denmark, Norway and Sweden.

In linguistics and cultural studies, the definition of Scandinavia is expanded to include the areas where Old Norse was spoken and where the North Germanic languages are now dominant. As a linguistic and cultural concept, Scandinavia thus also includes Iceland and the Faroe Islands.[1]
I was thinking along the lines of the historic/geographic model. You weren't. So I suppose we're both right
Historically Iceland got it's independance from Denmark in 1944, so technically it was Scandinavian :lol:

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Lucas
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Post by Lucas »

Peter Laban wrote:Not that Bjork is from any of the countries mentioned ofcourse
That's why you find a lot more Dutch, Danish and Swedish people who speak English than French, Spanish or Germans.
Some time ago the language institute of one of the Dutch universities (I think, I am going entirely by memory here, and a vague one at that) did a study comparing the use of other languages by people from different European countries. It turned out the Dutch think they are pretty much a population with great skills at speaking foreign languages. The reality was their control of a second language was far behind that of for example French or Germans.
Quite true actually. Dutch are notorious for their bad English, don't have a clue how to pronounce anything in French and speak German as if it were Dutch with a different vocabulary.

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Post by cowtime »

Just to clarify-

When I spoke of speaking more than one language as a gift, I did not mean "gift" as we would think of one say being "gifted" with a talent, such as the talent of being able to easily learn other languages for example.

I meant gift, as in they, for what ever reasons, have the ability and skill to converse and read ,fluently, in language other than their own. New cultures and countries are opened up to them in ways impossible for those who don't speak/read foreign language. I do understand that particularly European geography often dictates the need to learn languages other than what is native. :)
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alurker
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Post by alurker »

Redwolf wrote:I'd love to hear of some young people out there writing songs in Irish.
Check out the <a href="http://www.johnspillane.ie/discography/">latest realease</a> by this guy. Current Best Folk/ Trad Act winner of the Irish Music awards and all-round good guy <a href="http://www.johnspillane.ie/">John Spillane</a>. Co-writing with Louis de Paor in "The Gaelic Hit Factory" these two fellas have been pumping out high quality songs in Irish.
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Redwolf
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Post by Redwolf »

alurker wrote:
Redwolf wrote:I'd love to hear of some young people out there writing songs in Irish.
Check out the <a href="http://www.johnspillane.ie/discography/">latest realease</a> by this guy. Current Best Folk/ Trad Act winner of the Irish Music awards and all-round good guy <a href="http://www.johnspillane.ie/">John Spillane</a>. Co-writing with Louis de Paor in "The Gaelic Hit Factory" these two fellas have been pumping out high quality songs in Irish.
But are they things that 16-25 year olds who are into pop/punk/metal/etc. music want to listen to? That's the question. From what I've heard of John Spillane, he's more folky than rock and roll. What I'm hoping to find is kids who are writing for kids, producing music that Anocht FM's demographic would find appealing.

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Post by alurker »

John Spillane has a fairly significant popular following even amongst the 16-25 set. It is a lot more than just the folk/trad scene. Kila also have a large young new-age following and write plenty of Irish songs. Having said that the reason why the artists mentioned write in Irish is because they come from a trad/folk background. And I take your point, it is not exactly heavy metal.

It is unlikely that any Irish rock act trying to break into the big time would write songs in Irish. It is hard enough to break the Irish rock scene, never mind the international scene, writing in English. It is fine for Irish language enthusiasts to bemoan the lack of good quality pop/rock Irish language songs but realistically writing in Irish would be an impediment to success in Ireland as most of your potential audience would not understand your lyrics. As you say: "look at all the non-English hits we've seen over the past 30 years or so". How many of the 100 top-selling pop/punk/metal songs of the past from Ireland, the UK or the USA have been in a language other than English?
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