Generations - What's the problem?

Wanderer · Post by **Wanderer** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 10:52 am

Since all of the quotes you're mentioning come from me, Peter, I have to assume you're speaking directly to me and have some sort of axe to grind.

So let me ask you frankly. Here are your words.

Peter Laban wrote: It's maybe worth noting too that some of the ones considered nicer than the average are deviants as well. The one Donncha O Briain played was a known crooked one and one of Brid O Donohue's favourites, used on Tobar an Duchais, is definitely crooked too:
...
Ok, I am just back from Ennis. Custy's had a jar with a leftover dozen of Nickle Generation Ds. I don't know if I was scraping the bottom of the barrel but in fairness they were the scratchiest bunch I have ever gone through. Six were varying degrees of scratchy in the octave, one very much so. Two of the non scratchy ones a a bit of a hissy G but I am not sure how many people would mind that. The other four were pretty clean, I bought one of those.
...
I am not denying there were some scratchy ones in this batch, buying whistles can be like that and always has been.

What part of these quotes indicates that Generations are not of inconsistent quality? Which is, incidentally, the only thing I have ever maintained when this argument comes down.

If someone were to post "I don't like my generation..the upper octave is scratchy", invariably, some poeple post that Generations have variable quality, and nearly invaribly, you post something to the effect that perhaps it's the player's problem. You then usually go one to post how you have no problems with them, the kids in Ireland have no problems with them, and then if the argument goes on long enough, you name-drop some famous Irish player you just talked to who has no problem with them. Which, from your own posts in this very thread indicate that it very well could be otherwise, and that, yes, the person posting very well could have a scratchy Generation that they didn't have the luxury of hand-picking from a batch were 75% of them were rejected before purchase.

I readily recognize that you can play rings around me, and likely could find a bunch of 12 year olds in Ireland that could do the same, that doesn't mean that your advice (which is usually something along the lines of "geeze, just practice more") isn't unhelpful and quite possibly is incorrect for the problem being asked about.

But that's alright, Peter..the next time this argument comes up again..and it always does, I don't even need to confront you about it. I have a selection of quotes from your own writing to draw from.

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:00 pm

Wanderer wrote:
What part of these quotes indicates that Generations are not of inconsistent quality? Which is, incidentally, the only thing I have ever maintained when this argument comes down.

If someone were to post "I don't like my generation..the upper octave is scratchy", invariably, some poeple post that Generations have variable quality, and nearly invaribly, you post something to the effect that perhaps it's the player's problem. You then usually go one to post how you have no problems with them, the kids in Ireland have no problems with them, and then if the argument goes on long enough, you name-drop some famous Irish player you just talked to who has no problem with them. Which, from your own posts in this very thread indicate that it very well could be otherwise, and that, yes, the person posting very well could have a scratchy Generation that they didn't have the luxury of hand-picking from a batch were 75% of them were rejected before purchase.

I readily recognize that you can play rings around me, and likely could find a bunch of 12 year olds in Ireland that could do the same, that doesn't mean that your advice (which is usually something along the lines of "geeze, just practice more") isn't unhelpful and quite possibly is incorrect for the problem being asked about.

But that's alright, Peter..the next time this argument comes up again..and it always does, I don't even need to confront you about it. I have a selection of quotes from your own writing to draw from.

I have not changed my tune, I have never said anything other than that there is only one way of buying whistles and that is to try them and buy the one you like. And I feel that goes across the board, from cheap ones to the most expensive ones. That is what musicians do, as Wombat also pointed out. I did admit the bunch I looked at this time was more scratchy than the ones I am used to.

You have always maintained that Generations are out of tune. I hear no comments the samples in the clips were horribly out and as I said the tuning through the bunch I tried was consistent.

The point that learners and advanced players here play these whistles without a problem hasn't changed. The fact that you are apparently annoyed with the fact I mention people whom I know, play music with or those who are my friends or neighbours doesn't make the argument less valid.

When you actually learn to play the whistle well or even half decent you'll find you can go to a shop and pick up a whistle for under a tenner and play away merrily without hassle or effort. That point stands.

peeplj · Post by **peeplj** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:06 pm

Seems like an amazing amount of frustration is showing on all sides here.

These are just whistles, folks.

Relax. Play tunes. Drink something (alcoholic or not). Take a nap. Take a walk. Pet your dog.

--James

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:13 pm

I would have thought walking into a local shop, buy a whistle there and record it being played would be enough to show these whistles can actually be played without a problem.

Not so.

crookedtune · Post by **crookedtune** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:24 pm

¡Ay, caramba!
¡Ay, caramba! (pronounced ); from Spanish ¡ay! (interjection denoting surprise, but also used instead of "ouch") and caramba, lace worn on the head, (euphemism for carajo, an exclamation of disgust), from Caramba, nickname of María Antonia Fernández, music composer of the 18th century who wore that kind of laces; it is a frequently used phrase in the Spanish language.

The Weekenders · Post by **The Weekenders** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:36 pm

Most of the cheaper whistles I have seen lately in local shops have plastic wrappers around the fipple, making them impossible to try out, unless you punch a hole in the windway, which I am not bold enough to do as I am not really all that interested in buying. A bad development for "findin' the good one."

DCrom · Post by **DCrom** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:14 pm

The Weekenders wrote:Most of the cheaper whistles I have seen lately in local shops have plastic wrappers around the fipple, making them impossible to try out, unless you punch a hole in the windway, which I am not bold enough to do as I am not really all that interested in buying. A bad development for "findin' the good one."

I visited the SF Lark in the Morning store last weekend - it looked like it may vary by brand (though that may just reflect which shipments arrived most recently). I don't recall seeing any plastic-wrapped Generations or Clarke traditional models, but all the Feadogs, and most of the D Sweetones, were wrapped.

I've got to say, though, that I've seen lots less variability with Sweetones or Feadogs - I've never had a truly "unplayable" one. But for that matter, even the worst Generations I've seen (lots of flash or loose plastic bits on the head) were easy to tweak into playability. Not saying that there aren't any out there, but the biggest problem with the sound of any Generation I've played was . . . my playing.

Wanderer · Post by **Wanderer** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:30 pm

Peter Laban wrote: You have always maintained that Generations are out of tune.

No sir, that is completely incorrect and fabricated upon your own part.

I have only ever maintained that generations have variable breath control requirements for tuning, and that I have run into those that were impossible to bring into tune with any changes in breath pressure. I challenge you to find where I have said "generations are out of tune".

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:46 pm

You can play wordgames as much as you like but you could also wonder where would I get the idea you thought Generations weren't correctly tuned? If there is a misconception, it's one of your own making.

I think the average Generation is "just"...you know, like this:

"hey, that bloody whistle is out of tune!"

"Nah. It's just the way this one's tuned!"

lol

But, Generations are the king of whistles, used by masters everwhere! It must be you and not the whistle!

Seriously, though, while Generation brand whistles have their (sometimes rabid) fans, they also have their (sometimes rabid) detractors. Many of us (myself included) are convinced that Generation whistles tuning is more or less random due to poor quality control. I once bought a box of 10, pitted each one against my tuner, and each one was dramatically different as to which notes were sharp and which ones were flat, etc. Just about any musician that likes the Generation will admit it can take some work to find the "good ones" or to tweak the whistle so that it's worth playing.

I posted a long time ago (though I cannot find the post now) a series of Generation D tunings from a box of 10 that I had.

Many were impossible to play in tune, meaning that when A=440, some notes were impossible to get closer than 10 or 15 cents of where they should be with any sort of breath gymnastics. And it wasn't the same notes on every whistle. Their tuning, at that time, could best be described as "random". I haven't bought a box of 10 since then, so I don't know if their quality control has improved.

next Google check I get, I swear I'm going to repeat the experiment, just to see how things have changed, since it has been a few years.

Now, I do know that some people have expressed that having a whistle a little out of tune is part of the "charm" of a folk instrument. And if that's what floats your boat, there's nothing wrong with that. And if you can't hear 10 or 15 cents out of tune, that's ok too (well, unless you're playing with folks who get bent out of shape about that sort of thing).

As for the equal/just temperament thing, I don't think that the generations I used to own fit the definition of "in tune" for either definition. As for "doing a study" I did buy a box of 10 on Ebay, and at one time I put a number of them again a tuner, and posted the results. I tried to do a search for it recently, and couldn't find the post. I don't have the measurements saved on my computer, but wish I did. I seem to recall it was right around the first time we'd ever discussed equal/just temperament here, years ago.

The tuning as I remember it could best be described as "random"...On some, for instance, F# was way sharp. On others, F# was way flat. On both examples, the B might be in tune, for instance. None of them showed any real tuning consistencies that I could recall. If they were all consistently sharp the same amount, or flat the same amount, I might buy that theory more. But they weren't..they really were closer to "random". I may have just gotten a box of a bunch of stinkers...but the D I just recently got, and the C I have had for years also seem to follow that trend.

I've personally never said the generations I had were unplayable. One of them, if memory serves, could not be brought into tune with any kind of breath control. The rest were simply inconsistently tuned from each other.

Wanderer · Post by **Wanderer** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 3:57 pm

Peter Laban wrote:You can play wordgames as much as you like but you could also wonder where would I get the idea you thought Generations weren't correctly tuned? If there is a misconception, it's one of your own making.

I think the average Generation is "just"...you know, like this:

"hey, that bloody whistle is out of tune!"

"Nah. It's just the way this one's tuned!"

lol

Clearly, a joke in a conversation about "just" and "equal" tempermnet. In fact, the part you dont' quote says

Actually, according to Peter and someone else (sorry! I don't remember) Generations evidently have a slightly just bias over a large population. I can't verify, as I gave all of my big box of 10.

The other things you quoted do not answer the question of "show me where I said that all generations are out of tune". I've merely stated that the ones I've owned were inconsistently tuned. I still stand by that.

And you've consistently ignored the many times I've said things like this (when someone asked about the Gen D tuning):
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?p=302398#302398

That said, I don't know how long you've been playing. A lot of the "out of tune" phenomenon really can amount to poor breath control. I have a Soodlum's whistle which was horribly flat in some places when I got it, but now I can play it pretty good. I just got to be a better player. Some whistles aren't really suited for beginners, and take a lot of wrangling to play well. So, it really might be you and not the whistle

That quote comes from one of the very posts cherry pick parts out of context above.

So, bbzzzt! Wrong answer. Try again. Please, do not put words in my mouth.

StevieJ · Post by **StevieJ** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 4:26 pm

The point about Generations is, when you're raised on them, nothing else will do, 'cause nothing else sounds quite the same....

Lorenzo · Post by **Lorenzo** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 4:56 pm

Really, this Generation whistles tuning thing, the only thing that really matters is 1)taking off the mouthpiece and measuring the length of the tube; 2)measuring the diameter of the tube and thickness of the tubing; 3)measuring the distance from the top edge of the tube down to the center of each fingerhole; 4)measuring the size of each fingerhole. The length of the tube beyond the last fingerhole only tunes the last low note, right?

If they all measure the same from whistle to whistle (D to D, C to C, or Bb to Bb), the rest would depend on how far up or down the mouthpiece is pushed onto the tube, the configuration of the mouthpiece, and the embouchure of the player. So, if these measurements are all the same, but the whistles tunings don't all match, I'm sure it's not the tube's fault.

What I'm not sure of is how the internal configuration of the mouthpiece itself affects tuning. I can imagine the amout of air allowed through might affect it a little.

Wanderer · Post by **Wanderer** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 4:58 pm

FJohnSharp · Post by **FJohnSharp** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 5:05 pm

I'm sure we've had this discussion before, but how do the shops that allow playing of whistles disinfect between customers? In the US it seems that sanitation is a huge issue. Michael Burke has alcohol wipes at his booth for whistle testing. Could stationary shops do that? Are there actual health code laws regarding it?

Jerry Freeman · Post by **Jerry Freeman** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 5:27 pm

In Ireland (or at least in Co. Clare), it's not an issue.

We determined in an earlier discussion that the high manganese levels in the Irish drinking water provide a nutritional benefit that allows Irish children to perform quite respectable jigs and reels on whistles with which adult Americans are unable to produce even one acceptable note. That same nutritional strength, again owing to the high manganese drinking water, confers an immunity to any potential woodwinds related health concerns.

Best wishes,
Jerry