Generations - What's the problem?

emtor · Post by **emtor** » Mon Jan 01, 2007 8:31 am

Jerry Freeman makes a list of things that indicate worn molds/sloppy workmanship
with Generation-whistles.
I've seen the same things up through the years, and it doesn't annoy
me too much as long as it takes less than an hour to fix these issues
with the Gens I buy. -After all,-these are cheap mass-produced whistles
and some quality issues are unavoidable looking at it from a manufacturing
point of view.
As time goes by, manufacturing equipment will slowly wear down,
resulting in more and more ocurrences of bad specimens coming
off the assembly line.
If Generation were to replace their molds, it would cost them
quite a bit of money and a lot of work and it would be time
consuming as well, which means a loss of income.
If the numbers produced are high enough, quality control quickly
becomes an expensive task

What bugs me a bit more is when you purchase a whistle costing
twenty times or more than that of a Generation, only to find that the quality
from one specimen to another varies greatly.
Usually the maker will accept a return and try to fix the flaws, but that is not
really the point. The point is rather that with such a price-tag you'd expect
a decent quality-consistency from one specimen to the other.
Hand-made is not always synonymous with well-made, which is why I haven't
started making my own designs of whistles. Neither will I, until I find
production-methods that ensure a high degree of quality consistency.

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Mon Jan 01, 2007 8:38 am

What bugs me a bit more is when you purchase a whistle costing
twenty times or more than that of a Generation, only to find that the quality
from one specimen to another varies greatly.
Usually the maker will accept a return and try to fix the flaws, but that is not
really the point. The point is rather that with such a price-tag you'd expect
a decent quality-consistency from one specimen to the other.
Hand-made is not always synonymous with well-made

Brian Lee · Post by **Brian Lee** » Mon Jan 01, 2007 9:05 am

Hmmm, interesting. My experience has shown that hand made whistles have a VASTLY higher degree of quality control, and consistency from one to the next. There are several makers who will customize the sound or playability to one's liking, and granted there are better makers than others, and some who no matter what they try can't deliver a good product. But they seem to be the great exception rather than the rule when looking at hand made whistle and their makers as a whole.

RonKiley · Post by **RonKiley** » Mon Jan 01, 2007 9:33 am

I have some expensive whistles and I play them regularly. However the whistles that get played the most are one of my brass Feadogs, my nickel Feadog Pro, some of my Gens and a particularly nice Waltons C. I go where I can try them. I play a couple, pick out the ones I want and buy them. If I buy another expensive whistle it will not be because I think it is much better. It will be because of a certain sound or other personally desirable quality. I bought 12 Gens from the Whistle shop a few years ago. Thom picked them out and shipped them. There is not a bad one in the bunch. You pays your money and you takes your chances.

Ron

Jerry Freeman · Post by **Jerry Freeman** » Mon Jan 01, 2007 10:24 am

Peter Laban wrote:Again, I don't want to give the impression these whistles are flawless and are all fine, and while they are variable and always have been, I do think the majority of Generation/Oak/Feadogs is serviceable.

I have no argument with this.

What I've seen is that Generation whistleheads have the most variation, along the lines I posted earlier.

Feadog, Oak (which I believe may be manufactured for Music Sales Corporation by Feadog) and Waltons are very consistent and clean in the quality of their castings. These three are strikingly different in that regard from Generations.

Best wishes,
Jerry

Jerry Freeman · Post by **Jerry Freeman** » Mon Jan 01, 2007 11:28 am

Peter Laban wrote:I have come across some very variable Oaks, a few really nice ones and a few real mediocre ones but that may have been before they were 'made in Ireland'. The Feadogs I tried in shops seemed consistent enough. Last time I tried the Gens they seemed averagely consistent as well but I'll get back about this when I hit the shops this week.

I've found the D Generations I've encountered to be consistent across a hundred or so whistles at a stretch, purchased within a span of a year or so. My sampling of a hundred or so over a year or so probably would be representative of many thousands or perhaps even tens of thousands that would have been distributed worldwide within the same timeframe.

With the D's, I've encountered two groups:

1. Whistles that were more or less consistent except possibly for some variation in the amount of extraneous "flashing" and the random amount of swarf inside the socket, and

2. Another stretch of 100 or so whistles, again purchased within a year or so of each other, but more recently than the group above, all of which have the defect at the windway floor exit from insufficient plastic reaching the recesses of the mold. Almost every Generation D I've purchased within the last year or so has had this defect.

Within each of these two groups, I would characterize the D Generations as consistent, but over the longer span of time, I would say they're not consistent at all because these two groups of whistles are different from each other, if not in playability, then at least in the actual geometry of the castings. It may be that these two groups are from only two factory runs of whistleheads, since it's possible to run tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of injection molded plastic parts in a short time and then stock them for distribution over a long time.

I've seen considerably more variation in the Bb Generations, which have several variations that can show up in any given handful of them that I receive. This may be because fewer Bb Generations are made, and I'm getting older stock and newer stock all in the same order from my wholesaler, whereas the D Generations sell more quickly and any that are received will almost inevitably be newer stock.

The other variation I've seen is that older Generations of the same type tend to be cleaner and more precise in their dimensions than new ones, which show more evidence of the molds being worn and not fitting together as precisely as they would have when new.

Best wishes,
Jerry

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Mon Jan 01, 2007 12:09 pm

It's maybe worth noting too that some of the ones considered nicer than the average are deviants as well. The one Donncha O Briain played was a known crooked one and one of Brid O Donohue's favourites, used on Tobar an Duchais, is definitely crooked too:

Wanderer · Post by **Wanderer** » Mon Jan 01, 2007 12:34 pm

Peter Laban wrote:

Alright. I'm convinced. Nothing wrong with the quality control there.

Jerry Freeman · Post by **Jerry Freeman** » Mon Jan 01, 2007 3:57 pm

I would like to comment that, regardless of any differences of opinion about the significance of any of this, it's a charming bit of lore.

Best wishes,
Jerry

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Tue Jan 02, 2007 10:19 am

Ok, I am just back from Ennis. Custy's had a jar with a leftover dozen of Nickle Generation Ds. I don't know if I was scraping the bottom of the barrel but in fairness they were the scratchiest bunch I have ever gone through. Six were varying degrees of scratchy in the octave, one very much so. Two of the non scratchy ones a a bit of a hissy G but I am not sure how many people would mind that. The other four were pretty clean, I bought one of those.

Overall none were worse than the untweaked one Jerry sent me some years ago, scratchy but not unplayable, tuning was pretty consistent through the lot.

Here's a quick maybe not terribly inspired, clip of the whistle :The Knotted Cord recorded while the dinner is on the range, cooking. I suppose it gives enough of an impression to show you can go out and get a nice playing whistle for 7.50. The whistle is as is, I haven't taken the head off it yet and recorded this in one go without 'playing in' .

boomerang · Post by **boomerang** » Tue Jan 02, 2007 6:43 pm

Very nice Peter,
I love the Knotted Cord AKA Junior Crehan's
It's one of my favourites,
Sounded ok to me.
Regards David

PhilO · Post by **PhilO** » Tue Jan 02, 2007 7:17 pm

As always, lovely Peter. What a great whistle; who's the maker, where can I get one, how much does it cost.....oh

Philo

Post by **Dale** » Tue Jan 02, 2007 8:49 pm

PhilO wrote:As always, lovely Peter. What a great whistle; who's the maker, where can I get one, how much does it cost.....oh

Philo

Should I get brass or aluminum or nickel or what?

Denny · Post by **Denny** » Tue Jan 02, 2007 8:59 pm

what seems to be in right now...

walrii · Post by **walrii** » Tue Jan 02, 2007 9:17 pm

If we have any psych majors present, this might make an interesting dissertation: the Feadog is called "challenging" and "requires good breath control" while the Generation has "poor quality control." Is the difference real or is there some group psychology at work here? I think Dale should fly the lot of us to Hawaii in DaleForceOne and conduct a week-long study of the issue. I can get free next week.