Punctuation Period

[TheSpoonMan]

Hi Steve

I was under the impression that Mrs was a contraction of Mistress.

David

Then we would pronounce "mistress," not "missies." In speech it's usual to use either the abbreviation ("pee emm's Question Time") or say the whole thing in full ("Prime Minister's Question Time"). I can't think of any sort of middle-way examples in which the pronounced version doesn't reflect both the abbreviation and the full form.

Nah, makes perfect sense. Mistress > missus (or /mIstrEs/ > /mIs@s/ if you want teh IPA) is a really easy sound change. You see that kinda thing all over the world in language change- boatswain > bo'sun for a closer-to-home example. Or Latin magister > mister, with a whole stop (even tho' it is a voiced stop) dropping out. Or Gospel coming from Old English Gódspel (hmph, can't get macrons), meaning "good news".It's thought that word "lay" (or was it "lie"? eitehr way), IIRC, came frm an PIE word that went something like "legeionom".

[Bloomfield]

Fowler distinguished between abbreviations formed by truncating a word after the first few letters, and those formed by dropping letters from the middle of the word. He recommended placing a period after the former kind, but none after latter. Mr for Mister is the latter kind, and no period should be used. Write Capt. for captain, but Cpl for corporal, doz. for dozen, but cwt for hundredweight (remember those?). Fowler seems to have been widely followed in Brit. usage but less so in Am. English.

In American English usage is confused on this point, and even top authorities, like Garner, eschew formulating rules. The most that can be said is that using a period after Mr. or Mrs. is viewed as traditional or old-fashioned, while omitting the period may seem modern, and even a Britishism.

P.S. for Steve: Fowler calls them periods, too.

[izzarina]

while omitting the period may seem modern, and even a Britishism.

Well, I wouldn't want to be accused of Britishism, now would I?

So, if I am understanding this correctly (at this late hour), the usage of a period in such abbreviations as Mr. and Mrs. is more American? Other countries don't use this? Could this be compared to the usage of a comma in numbers over 10,000 (we Americans use the comma, and it is my understanding that in other countries it is written 10 000 instead, sans the comma) ?

[talasiga]

It has been mentioned in another thread (one which I'd rather not muddy with such questions, hence my starting a new thread....although, really, if you must know, I'm still wanting permission to call Tal, "Tal" and if I hijack his thread he may never let me), that it is no longer necessary to use a period when writing Mr. or Mrs. I personally have never encountered such a thing, and find it to almost be blasphemous, but I'd like to see where such a thing has been introduced. Mr. (as well as Mrs.) is an abbreviation, which when shortened would require the proper punctuation...in this case, a period at the end of it. How on earth did this grammatical requirement become archaic?

no, I really have nothing better to do than post silly thread such as this one. Thank you for noticing

Dear Izzy,
There was no danger of hijacking my topic because it was WOMBAT'S topic. I must commend to you the recent Bloomf. post above.
I must re-iterate here that, taking account of usages of English among the old fashioned and the new fashioned speakers and the bifurcation of your Atlantic, the vagaries of Irish and Indian English as well as the quaint yet proper fossilizations of it in certain ex colonial quarters of the Pacific and Australasia, the overriding opinion of professorial usage experts is that the period is optional and that the absence of it is preferred where an abbreviation includes the last letter of the word being abbreviated. This was already explained by me in the other topic as was the optionality.

The wash out is that you won't find me correcting you if you prefer to write the period but beware those who would correct me for not using it. I have not used the period after Mr or Mrs (short for MISTRESS - see your Oxford dictionary Mr Shaw!) since my early years at Australian schools in the 1960's.

And please don't start a topic about St, the abbreviation for Street. Is the t in it the first t or the last t, eh what? Such a topic would need the blessings of St. Jude.

[Innocent Bystander]

Yes, Mrs used to be Mistress - I remember it well. People have become so slovenly in their speech, it is a sheer disgrace. I say, bring back the title "Goodwife"! And that being none of a couple, a Wife being a woman of good standing.

The title Ms is an abbreviation. It means "manuscript".

Aye it was that creature Fowler, and his fellow Partridge, bringing in these neologisms... I mean, rationalising the archaic habits of written language.

[talasiga]

Yes, Mrs used to be Mistress - I remember it well. People have become so slovenly in their speech, it is a sheer disgrace.
......

Dat's nuttin.
In French, Mme is the abrreviation for Madame!

[djm]

Such a topic would need the blessings of St. Jude.

Perhaps you meant St-Jude?

djm

[gonzo914]

Perhaps a compromise is in order.

If the Brits will

• 1. stop using "cheque" instead of "check" ;
  2. stop putting that useless 'u' in words like 'colour' and 'humour' where it has no place;
  3. quit spelling 'advertizing' as 'advertising' and 'criticizing' as 'criticising' and all the other '-izing's;
  4. write numeric dates in the correct order (month/day/year, not day/month/year);
  5. spell 'gray' with an 'a' like it sounds;
  6. quit calling cookies 'biscuits,' and
  7. try to build a car that doesn't rust out in 18 months;

then Americans will

• 1. quit using a period in Mr and Mrs;
  2. not giggle when you offer to 'knock us up' in the morning or to lend us a 'rubber';
  3. stop exporting Britney Spears CDs to you;
  4. promise to buy one box of Christmas crackers per family per year until all Americans know what they are;
  5. spell 'theatre' with an '-re,' which won' be all that hard to do because most of our pretentious pricks are spelling it that way anyway;
  6. give you back New Jersey; and
  7. quit constantly reminding you that we bailed you out the last two times Germany was whippin' your ass.

Similar offers will be extended to other members of the Commonwealth as appropriate and as time permits.

[The Weekenders]

I thought the us of "Ms." was a good idea but it seems like a stagnant if not dying form of address.

[Innocent Bystander]

Perhaps a compromise is in order.

If the Brits will

• 1. stop using "cheque" instead of "check" ;
  2. stop putting that useless 'u' in words like 'colour' and 'humour' where it has no place;
  3. quit spelling 'advertizing' as 'advertising' and 'criticizing' as 'criticising' and all the other '-izing's;
  4. write numeric dates in the correct order (month/day/year, not day/month/year);
  5. spell 'gray' with an 'a' like it sounds;
  6. quit calling cookies 'biscuits,' and
  7. try to build a car that doesn't rust out in 18 months;

then Americans will

• 1. quit using a period in Mr and Mrs;
  2. not giggle when you offer to 'knock us up' in the morning or to lend us a 'rubber';
  3. stop exporting Britney Spears CDs to you;
  4. promise to buy one box of Christmas crackers per family per year until all Americans know what they are;
  5. spell 'theatre' with an '-re,' which won' be all that hard to do because most of our pretentious pricks are spelling it that way anyway;
  6. give you back New Jersey; and
  7. quit constantly reminding you that we bailed you out the last two times Germany was whippin' your ass.

Similar offers will be extended to other members of the Commonwealth as appropriate and as time permits.

On our part

1. Only if you call the game Draughts, properly, instead of insisting it's called checkers. We'll even let you spell it "Drafts". Or you could start spelling it "Chequers".
2. We can't get rid of the "u". The French will get take umbrage.
3. That's happening anyway. Us Brits on Chiff&Fipple are antiquated dinosaurs, for the most part. Especially me. You'll just have to put up with us. (please?)
4. NEVER! How logical is it to put the month first? It's deranged! We'll fight this one to the death! It's bad enough that no-one writes the month in Roman Numerals anymore, e.g. 29/XII/2006.
5. I'll concede this one. Again, it's happening anyway. Can you say "cultural imperialism"? I knew you could!
6. Shan't. And you can't make me. A "Bis-cuit" is something twice cooked, and therefore crisp. Not a Scone. "Cookies" forsooth!
7. Sadly, no power on earth will work this one.

And as for YOUR side:

1. We NEVER use periods. We use full stops!
2. I thought we were the ones doing the giggling...
3. We've got Billie Piper anyway.
4. Not enough. You have to start going to Pantomimes as well.
5. Perhaps we could compromise and both call them "Halls of Drama".
6. You can keep it.
7. And we'll stop reminding you that you always turn up late!

[BrassBlower]

Maybe someday I can use my cell phone to call you on your mobile (i.e. Moh-BILE), and it won't cost a single penny for either (is that E-ther or I-ther?) of us.

[Nanohedron]

Incidentally, what the hell is a crumpet, anyway?

[BigDavy]

Incidentally, what the hell is a crumpet, anyway?

Hi Nanohedron

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crumpet

David

[Nanohedron]

Thank you, Dave!

I could have Googled it myself, couldn't I have. It's so much more genial this way, though. Great bunch o' little crumpets, you Chiffers.

[BigDavy]

Thank you, Dave!

I could have Googled it myself, couldn't I have. It's so much more genial this way, though. Great bunch o' little crumpets, you Chiffers.

Hi Nanohedron

Try a scottish crumpet straight from the pan and dribbled with an aromatic honey. Smells and tastes great