(D) whistles with C natural in tune?

[Cayden]

In the noted clips I consciously played at the baseline, which should indicate baseline intonation. It's not scientific, but it can be useful to both an experienced or an amateur player.

Hope you got no hammering was intended, but some bits were noticeable and mentioning it was only for comparison and to illustrate the point a less experienced player will not immediately sound in tune on a $300 whistle

A well behaved whistle can help an amateur gain a bit of confidence and ease, and maybe play better and practice more.

I don't subscribe to that one, to me someone who can't play still sounds like someone who can't play whatever whistle they are playing or whatever illusion they have bought themselves into.

[dfernandez77]

Hope you got no hammering was intended, but some bits were noticeable and mentioning it was only for comparison and to illustrate the point a less experienced player will not immediately sound in tune on a $300 whistle

I know you were not bashing my playing. In some bits the intonation clinkers are really noticeable, in both the scales and the tunes - especially on the Copeland. I think all three did best in the scale starting at G across the D Maj octave break-point with a Cnat - I'd have to listen again to be sure.

To be honest I like playing more than I like listening to my playing. I'm probably more critical of my real attempts at playing well (not messing about with sound clips) than you or others would be.

You actually pointed out the fact, using my "baseline" clips, that even a $300 Copeland is not bang in tune. It's the player that brings any whistle into tune by adjusting for it's quirks. To be fair to the Copeland, it's easily played into tune - and you play it for it's unique punchy, confident, powerful voice. You have to physically get behind it (like an Overton) to bring out it's best.

Anyway, using the hypothetical baseline I invented, I don't recall any whistle that was perfectly in tune through 2 octaves plus a Cnat. The player brings them into tune - or sometimes not - through their interpretation. A very experienced player will adjust to any given whistle's quirks faster than me for sure.

Even if there was some quirk-less, perfectly in tune, and well voiced whistle, I don't think it would be a hot seller. We all choose whistles for our favored quirks - and some folks have expensive quirks. That's probably half the magic and fascination for many of us here. Well, that and noodling out a tune or two.

[Screeeech!!!]

Loren, can you please explain why moving the top hole and making it larger or smaller (as i said in my earlier post on this thread) to tune the c nat is not an option, please?

You mention in your posts that other notes go out of tune if you tune the C nat. Other than the c nat, what notes would go out of tune by simply moving the top hole a little further up the tube and making it smaller?

Thanks

[dfernandez77]

...to me someone who can't play still sounds like someone who can't play whatever whistle they are playing or whatever illusion they have bought themselves into.

That may come from the fact that you are listening based on different criteria. I'm close enough to my first time picking up a whistle to remember working to just keep from playing clinkers and squeaks while practicing The Muffin Man. A Burke, which I have since sold, helped me sneak past the squawks and chirps for long enough to keep at it. My focus in playing the whistle was on something very different back then.

Now I'm thinking more about expression, intonation, a consistently pleasant vibrato, and meter and rhythm. For example I play the Spanish Lady and think, "Yeesh, why'd I swing it like that? Too many hours listening the Tito Puentes in my youth." Or I play an Aire and work on voice vibrato and finger vibrato - which notes, how much of the note, and how fast should it be? So the things I'm working on now, I'll be equally good or bad at on any whistle. These things are more subtle than avoiding clinkers and chirps - errors in subtlety are noticeable on any whistle.

But back to your argument. Perhaps you don't remember it, or you learned so early in your youth that it didn't apply - but there's a time in the beginning of the learning curve where a well behaved whistle is safe, comfortable, and encouraging. At least that was my experience, and I think it's shared by many late beginners.

[Cayden]

Perhaps you don't remember it, or you learned so early in your youth that it didn't apply - but there's a time in the beginning of the learning curve where a well behaved whistle is safe, comfortable, and encouraging. At least that was my experience, and I think it's shared by many late beginners.
_________________

I bought my first whistle when I was fifteen, I still have and play most of the whistles I bought during the seventies actually. Looking at my own experiences and the groups of learning whistleplayers I see today (last friday I played for and with a group of around thirty of Brid Donohue's pupils age 7-16, all of them sounding great relative to the time they had been playing) I don't see the problem with starting off on an off the shelf €4 whistle. As you know.

[dfernandez77]

I don't see the problem with starting off on an off the shelf €4 whistle. As you know.

I know. I don't see anything wrong with it either.

[Screeeech!!!]

Loren, can you please explain why moving the top hole and making it larger or smaller (as i said in my earlier post on this thread) to tune the c nat is not an option, please?

You mention in your posts that other notes go out of tune if you tune the C nat. Other than the c nat, what notes would go out of tune by simply moving the top hole a little further up the tube and making it smaller?

Thanks

Loren?

[Congratulations]

Loren, can you please explain why moving the top hole and making it larger or smaller (as i said in my earlier post on this thread) to tune the c nat is not an option, please?

You mention in your posts that other notes go out of tune if you tune the C nat. Other than the c nat, what notes would go out of tune by simply moving the top hole a little further up the tube and making it smaller?

Thanks

Loren?

I'm not Loren (and I don't know much about much), but changing the size of the top hole would surely change the intonation of C# as well as Cn. And I doubt you could get both perfectly in tune by that method.

[Loren]

Yeah, I honestly don't have the time or inclination to give a tuning clinic at the moment, but certainly moving the top hole is going to affect the C# note through both octaves, and not equally. Also, one has to keep in mind comfortable (practical) tone hole spacing, as well as sizing, because while it sounds easy enough to just move a hole up or down the tube and change it's size, there are always compromises that come of this, with regards to tuning and volume, etc.

If it were a simple matter of just moving one hole a little bit, we wouldn't be having this conversation about out of tune Cnat notes (regadless of the temperament)


Thin walled Tin whistles are seriously at a disadvantage because undercutting of the toneholes is impossible, so one really useful tool in terms of bringing notes into tune while leaving the tone holes in the "proper" place, is unavailable.


Loren

[Screeeech!!!]

Congratulations...

I mean that you move the top hole up (or down) resizing it accordingly to keep the C# in tune. This then allows less (or more - respectively) air escaping the top hole on the Cnat. Thus changing the pitch of (and bringing into tune) the Cnat oxx ooo while maintaining the correct pitch of the C# (in the bottom octave at least).

Loren...

I can understand that this then may put the top C# out of tune a bit (unless you can undercut it) but as i hardly ever play that, while i play the lower Cnat quite a lot, i don't think that it's too bad a trade off to make.

And how many whistles have a perfectly in tune top C# in the first place?

Anyway, i'm off on me hols for a week, so i'll leave ya all in peace.

Have a wonderful Winter Solstice everyone, and a good year ahead.

[Frederik Meesters]

I understand some things you want to say (Peter etc.)
But i don't know
that you really understand what i want to say.
And i don't understand anymore very clear what i want to say .

Maybe this helps (but this has more to do with tuning in general)
If you give all your (newbie) pupils different whistles from different makers, and they play together a tune, it wil maybe sound

But if you give them all, let's say Overtons are Alba's, they will maybe sound


(this was something Stacey from Albawhistles said)

[Cayden]

I understand what you are saying but the fact remains there are various factors at work. When you give two different people two identical whistles it will still demand an effort from both to bring the pitches together. If you are talking beginners you will have your intonation floating regardless of the whistle. Last friday I found myself in the presence of around 30 learners playing whistles, a few of the least advanced were a bit off and between the 30 of them there was a fair amount of drift between the pitches, but there would be. A smaller section of 10-12 year olds ran through Farewell to Ireland and held that together admirably, both musically and pitch wise.

[vomitbunny]

Anyone have any idea why thick wall whistles have good c nats, but a flute, which is thick walled, of course, usually does not. I have a picc, and it has a great c nat, but none of my flutes has an easy and strong c nat. oxxooo
Seems like it would have something to do with size.
I actually have taken a course in music physics years ago, but I don't remember anything about flutes and whistles.

[peeplj]

Both oxx|ooo and oxo|xxx are strong, well-voiced notes on pretty much all of my flutes.

What kind of flute have you encountered a weak or badly tuned oxx|ooo on?

That fingering goes all the way back to the days of the Baroque traverso.

Now C-sharp, on the other hand, is usually a bit flat and needs to be blown into tune. On a keyed flute, if the high C-sharp is too flat, you can help it greatly by venting the C-natural key as well.

--James

[vomitbunny]

I got two Burns and an Mand E.
On all of them I prefer oxxxox.
oxxooo is doable, just not as strong as other notes.

I have a couple of piccs that have very good c nats. One (dixon) plays oxxooo very nicely, the other, an old no name likely french or german, the
c nat is great with oxoooo, and flat with oxxooo. On both the easy c nats are very strong.