How Irish is Irish music?

[Bloomfield]

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Anyway, diatonic means specifically that no interval in the scale is larger than one hole [sic] step, so the number of notes in the scale doesn't really matter, and it doesn't make sense to me to somehow refer those tunes back to diatonic scale.
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I see that that came out wrong. Diatonic means no interval larger than one whole step, which leads to 7 steps to a scale. "Gapped" scales aren't diatonic.

You see, dear Bloomfield, the no. of notes is critical in the definition.

A diatonic scale is a 7 note scale which has no interval greater than a whole tone. There you have it! Its a mathematical fact that this = a group of scales with 5 whole tones and two semitones. The arrangements of those intervals will determine what modal description will be given.

Non diatonic scales are not used in western european folk traditions ....

I am saying that Mixolydian is a diatonic scale. I did not say gapped scales did not exist. I was describing diatonics which are 7 note scales as per the definitions. Of course there are pentatonics and so forth and these, in the ITM and related trads are referred to as gapped modes. But the subject was diatonic modes. So how you come to a conclusion that I was insisting absence of pentatonics and hexatonics is beyond me.

Which is it? It seems to me that after three pages in a thread where someone wants to find out about Irish music, you have been telling them "the only diatonic scales used in Irish music are diatonic."

[Bloomfield]

Well, I hope we're discussing this stuff to share and learn and open our horizons and our ears, not to be "right" or "wrong."

it doesn't make sense to me to somehow refer those tunes back to diatonic scale.

I think in some senses it does. To my ear (no "theory" here), a pentatonic or hexatonic scale that is a subset of a diatonic scale sounds "normal," that is, like what I'm used to, western diatonic music. The fact that there are gaps doesn't register, because it could just be that the melody doesn't happen to use certain notes. What matters to my ears is that none of the notes I hear clashes with the diatonic "pattern" I'm used to.

I am all for opening horizons and ears. Whether it makes some sense or not depends on how the scale relates to the tonal center of the tune. Particular notes of the diatonic scale, such as the leading note in the major scale (7th step), construct the harmonic fabric. They determine where up and down is in a piece of (Western Art music). By removing notes gapped scales may become tonally ambivalent, so that the analytical tools of Western tonality seem not to fit. For example, if a tune has a scale with no 3rd step, you can't tell whether it's "minor" or "major". Or if a scale is "missing" the seventh step, the V-I cadence won't work in the same way to create a harmonic center. If I am right about this, I don't think it is correct to just regard each gapped scale as a subset of a diatonic scale.

Ultimately the concept of a diatonic scale (or related concepts like chromatic or enharmonic) come down to tuning and to the various ways of dealing with the difference in pitch between 7 octaves and 12 fifths (the infamous Pythagorean Comma).

[BoneQuint]

I don't think it is correct to just regard each gapped scale as a subset of a diatonic scale.

True, I didn't want to imply that. I just wanted to point out the gapped scales which are a subset of a diatonic scale are (and sound) very different from those that are not.

I guess the misunderstanding that caused this excess verbiage was that your first post apparently referred to gapped scales, but Talisiga and I both thought you were alluding to non-diatonic 7-note scales. His contention is not that "the only diatonic scales used in Irish music are diatonic," but ""the only 7-note scales used in Irish music are diatonic." This is consistent with all that he's posted.

But in any case, some traditional western folk music (such as Swedish) does use non-diatonic 7-note scales.

[Bloomfield]

I guess the misunderstanding that caused this excess verbiage was that your first post apparently referred to gapped scales, but Talisiga and I both thought you were alluding to non-diatonic 7-note scales. His contention is not that "the only diatonic scales used in Irish music are diatonic," but ""the only 7-note scales used in Irish music are diatonic." This is consistent with all that he's posted.

Thanks for your post. But I doubt even that "the only 7-note scales used in Irish music are diatonic."

X:1
T:Flogging Reel
R:Reel
M:C|
L:1/8
Q:1/4=200
K:G
|:B~G3 BGdG|B~G3 (3Bcd gd|B~G3 BdcB|AGFG ABcA:|
|:~g3d BGBd|~g3d fgaf|~g3d BGBd|AGFG ABcA:|
|: (3Bcd gd Bdgd|Bdgd BGG2|Ac=fc Ac=fc|Ac=fc A=FF2|
(3Bcd gd Bdgd|Bdef ~g3a|bgaf gdBd|AGFG ABcA|]

G-A-B-c-d-f-f#-g (if you want to look at it that way.)

That's perhaps not even as good an example as could be dug up with a bit of thought and effort. It's all a bit more complicated and subtle than "modes."

[talasiga]

........
I guess the misunderstanding that caused this excess verbiage was that your first post apparently referred to gapped scales, but Talisiga and I both thought you were alluding to non-diatonic 7-note scales. His contention is not that "the only diatonic scales used in Irish music are diatonic," but ""the only 7-note scales used in Irish music are diatonic." This is consistent with all that he's posted.
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I am so glad that you can discern consistency in my posts. I am glad you are not bamboozled my the very selective cut and paste representation of my posts for the purposes that Bloomfoeld only knows.

This is what I actually said in the very post in this topic in which I raised the diatonic issue:-

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(I think it is in mixolydian rather than a "normal" diatonic scale).

mixolydian is diatonic as are all 7 note relatives of "the" major scale.
Any 7 note scale, which covers an octave and which includes 2 semitones is diatonic. If you take any major scale (ionian mode) and use each of its notes as a keynote for a new scale you will get a series of diatonic modes of scale, each obtaining a different arrangement of the diatonic formula.

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and, in the next post I said:-

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49. Every diatonic scale contains five tones and two semi-tones, the arrangement of which varies according to the mode.

ITM predominates with the Dorian, Mixolydian and Ionian modes all of which are diatonic. Each of them is an arrangement of 7 notes with two of them being semi-tones. Of these the latter two are major because the third interval is major in them and the former is minor for the 3rd in it is minor. The standard minor scale (Aeolian mode) also occurs in ITM. It too is diatonic. The following diatonics do not occur in ITM - Phrygian, Lydian and Locrian.

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[Bloomfield]

........
I guess the misunderstanding that caused this excess verbiage was that your first post apparently referred to gapped scales, but Talisiga and I both thought you were alluding to non-diatonic 7-note scales. His contention is not that "the only diatonic scales used in Irish music are diatonic," but ""the only 7-note scales used in Irish music are diatonic." This is consistent with all that he's posted.
.........

I am so glad that you can discern consistency in my posts. ....

No worries. I, too, discern the consistency of your posts, Tal. But many of them can be clarified eventually.

[BoneQuint]

That's perhaps not even as good an example as could be dug up with a bit of thought and effort. It's all a bit more complicated and subtle than "modes."

Well, I agree with that. Many hornpipes in D or G have both C and C#. But usually you can tell what key it's in, the other note is generally an "accidental" and not tied to the main structure of the tune (on unaccented beats, as a passing tone, etc.). So it's still very diatonically-flavored, with just a bit of spice.

It seems clear that Irish (or American or English) traditional music is much more diatonically-based than say Klezmer or Greek music. I think it's fair enough to point this out. You can find exceptions, but the scales generally used are a big reason for the difference in sound. I find it hard to find anything controversial in that. I don't think it's meant in a belittling way or something. Of course, if people are going to bandy about generalizations like they're gospel, that's one thing, but I don't see that happening in this thread.

[Nanohedron]

What I think Talasiga has been attempting to put forth - correct me if I'm wrong - is that however chromatic an ITM tune may be, it tends to hew to the interval relationships within Ionian, Dorian, Mixolydian and Aeolian modes. Example: Ríl Bhéara. It's one of the more notably chromatic of Irish tunes, but when I listen to it, I find that its changes suggest E Ionian to E Mixolydian to E Dorian and back to E Ionian just in the first part alone. The second part is less involved, but only just. There are no recognisable Phrygian, Lydian, or Locrian progressions in it. To my immediate memory I don't recall any special exceptions to this tendency elsewhere among ITM tunes as normally played. If there were, I'd probably assume they were "borrowed" tunes, or else newer, envelope-pushing compositions.

So? Is that what you're trying to communicate, Talasiga?

[Bloomfield]

What I think Talasiga has been attempting to put forth - correct me if I'm wrong - is that however chromatic an ITM tune may be, it tends to hew to the interval relationships within Ionian, Dorian, Mixolydian and Aeolian modes. Example: Ríl Bhéara. It's one of the more notably chromatic of Irish tunes, but when I listen to it, I find that its changes suggest E Ionian to E Mixolydian to E Dorian and back to E Ionian just in the first part alone. The second part is less involved, but only just. There are no recognisable Phrygian, Lydian, or Locrian progressions in it. To my immediate memory I don't recall any special exceptions to this tendency elsewhere among ITM tunes as normally played. If there were, I'd probably assume they were "borrowed" tunes, or else newer, envelope-pushing compositions.

So? Is that what you're trying to communicate, Talasiga?

How far can you bend over backwards before you fall down?

If you
- ignore pentatonic and hexatonic scales,
- ignore c/c# or f/f# shifts as accidental,
- ignore intonation,
- ignore "borrowed tunes," and
- look for a "tendency" rather than a rule,
well then, you might say Irish music is more diatonic than not. That strikes me as a far cry from "non-diatonic scales are not used in Western folk." The most offensive of the listed carve-outs to my mind, by the way, is the inclusion of pentatonic and hexatonic scales in "diatonic."

(And it all strikes me as useless and misleading for actually learning to play the music, but that may be just me. In that spirit, however, I will resist the temptation to further contribute to these attempts at Talasiga-exegesis. Very satori, I am sure. But I've got a hundred monkeys in the next room, and I think they've just started on Act III.)

[Nanohedron]

Not a "Talasiga-exegesis" on my part at all, Bloo. What I finally got was some sense out what - I confess - to me was a fair amount of murk (not that I fully agree now having seen the point, if that's what I've done). I don't ignore flat/sharp shifts as accidental, for example, as that's my paradigm, and in that, I do consider pentatonic tunes to be a different animal from the diatonic. Back to Ríl Bhéara, I was going over it as a prime example of what I take to be your stance, as a matter of fact, and I think it holds. I was struck to find, though, that I could finally detect Talasiga's paradigm in the tune, too. But it's only that. All in the name of greater communication, I suppose. At what price, I wonder.

But in the end, as you say, there's the playing. Period. Throwing in "blue" note ornamentations and runs are very much part of the traditional bag of tricks, and so with such application the modal-only paradigm is thrown onto the shakiest of ground.

What I'm arriving at, though, is that the academic bent of the subject is wearying, and doesn't enlighten me or make me play better. I think you and I are in agreement on this. Just because I can bring myself to detect modes doen't mean I shouldn't change them or even blow them out of the water altogether if I have the mettle, and the sense of taste to make it work.

[dubhlinn]

"

And it all strikes me as useless and misleading for actually learning to play the music...

That's it.

'Nuff said.

Slan,
D.

[BoneQuint]

If you
- ignore pentatonic and hexatonic scales,
- ignore c/c# or f/f# shifts as accidental,
- ignore intonation,
- ignore "borrowed tunes," and
- look for a "tendency" rather than a rule,
well then, you might say Irish music is more diatonic than not.

Well, I have yet to hear of an Irish tune that's unarguably built on a non-diatonic 7-note scale. But there are hundreds of tunes in other cultures that ARE unarguably built on non-diatonic 7-note scales. You don't need any "ignoring" to make that conclusion.

I don't mean to be a bully, but geez, obviously there was a bit of a misunderstanding that has been somewhat cleared up, but I don't see anyone giving an inch.

Talasiga: Gapped scales are non-diatonic, and have their own flavor, and are prevalent in Irish music. Even if you weren't referring to them, surely you can see this point. And, some western (non-Irish) music does use non-diatonic 7-note scales.

Bloomfield: Irish music is not built on non-diatonic seven-note scales in the way that Klezmer, Arabic, etc., music is -- while a few examples of accidentals and chromaticity can be found, I doubt you can find any traditional tunes built solely on a 7-note non-diatonic scale, as you can in many other traditions.

This is just a very simple, basic difference between music from different traditions. It isn't dry, nit-picking theorizing. Knowing the scales prevalent in a tradition certainly helps you pick up new tunes. If nothing else, it lets you know that you can play most Irish music with a six-hole diatonic whistle. Isn't that nice to know?

I guess some buttons are being pushed here, because the reactions I see don't seem to match the concepts being presented, from either "side."

[hyldemoer]

Y'all been bickering back a forth here for a while.
Last Sunday a mess of people who were probably anticipating an Irish evening here in Chicago had their concepts of reality expanded.

Kevin Burke's "Celtic Fiddle Festival" came to town.
It was Mr. Burke (Ireland), Christian Lemâtre (Brittany) and André Brunet (Quebec) and Gilles Apap (France).

If they'd closed their eyes I imagine many of those in the audience wouldn't have know what tune was coming from who/where
except when André Brunet played. Who needs a bodhran when you have such talented pieds!

[I.D.10-t]

Yes or no question,

in the notes that they have in common is there a difference in pitch of the notes in the seven tone and the five tone scales when just interval tuning is used instead of Equal temperament?

I hope that question makes sense.

[hyldemoer]

Yes or no question,

in the notes that they have in common is there a difference in pitch of the notes in the seven tone and the five tone scales when just interval tuning is used instead of Equal temperament?

I hope that question makes sense.

To fiddle players, yes.
To some wind players, yes also.

Anybody who plays an instrument with frets is sort of glued to Equal temperament, no?