How Irish is Irish music?

[talasiga]

......
(I think it is in mixolydian rather than a "normal" diatonic scale).

mixolydian is diatonic as are all 7 note relatives of "the" major scale.
Any 7 note scale, which covers an octave and which includes 2 semitones is diatonic. If you take any major scale (ionian mode) and use each of its notes as a keynote for a new scale you will get a series of diatonic modes of scale, each obtaining a different arrangement of the diatonic formula.

Non diatonic scales are not used in western european folk traditions, in contrast to eastern european, mediterranean and "exotic" traditions which employ both diatonic and non diatonic scales.

[talasiga]

........
There are native Irish musicians who don't speak Irish and are brilliant at their music, after all.

.......
The playing of Irish airs does require, ideally, knowing the lyrics to the songs they come from. Sometimes those lyrics are only in English, as in The May Morning Dew.

I really don't see why given that the melodic core of these can be traced back to medieval church song which was, in Ireland, in Latin.

We should be wary not to underrate the magic of musical sensitivity in enabling access to ethnos. In the final analysis, ethnos is informed by universal human emotions. What gives those expressions the particularity of an ethnos has as much to do with landscape and attitude as linguistic cadence and the like.

these are opinions.

[Bloomfield]

Non diatonic scales are not used in western european folk traditions, in contrast to eastern european, mediterranean and "exotic" traditions which employ both diatonic and non diatonic scales.

This is just plain rude. I am sure we all appreciate your insight into Indian music or ethnos (or whatever it is you have insight into). But if you don't know about western European folk traditions, then just don't talk about them, or ask about them, or at least don't go off as if you knew about them (and you've been asked to show a bit of self-restraint in that respect before). Next you're going to tell the unsuspecting that pianos are not used in western European folk traditions, and that all western European folk musicians stand on their head while playing.

[Nanohedron]

........
There are native Irish musicians who don't speak Irish and are brilliant at their music, after all.

.......
The playing of Irish airs does require, ideally, knowing the lyrics to the songs they come from. Sometimes those lyrics are only in English, as in The May Morning Dew.

I really don't see why given that the melodic core of these can be traced back to medieval church song which was, in Ireland, in Latin.

We should be wary not to underrate the magic of musical sensitivity in enabling access to ethnos. In the final analysis, ethnos is informed by universal human emotions. What gives those expressions the particularity of an ethnos has as much to do with landscape and attitude as linguistic cadence and the like.

these are opinions.

Oh, absolutely. But my post about airs has to do with the issue of phrasing, not to the exclusion of melodic subtleties and landscape, which I was not underrating, as you put it, and certainly Latin has nothing to do with it. Airs are usually the tunes to folk songs, and when they are, it oughtn't be ignored. One can play an air simply or fairly encrusted with ornamentation, but the phrasing really should follow in a reasonable degree to the words however you go about it, and there are subtleties and some variation to that, of course. And melodic subtleties contibute to the process, no question. Of course in the end it's a whole, not a sum of parts. But if you've ever listened to an air being played by someone who's unfamiliar with the words behind it, though, the result is usually unsatisfying, even to the unfamiliar.

There are ways to get around that, though. If the air is so familiar that everyone knows it (Londonderry Air, for one), or if one has recordings of at least three (preferably more, I think) versions from expert players to listen to, I think it's possible to learn to play an air well. It's preferable to know the words if you can, though. That's the unassailable link to the tune. If you think that a knowledgable Irish listener won't be listening for the phrasing, think again!

- And I believe you meant to say "ethos", not "ethnos".

[talasiga]

Thanks for your clarification and correction Nano.


With reagrd to this other post

Non diatonic scales are not used in western european folk traditions, in contrast to eastern european, mediterranean and "exotic" traditions which employ both diatonic and non diatonic scales.

This is just plain rude. I am sure we all appreciate your insight into Indian music or ethnos (or whatever it is you have insight into). But if you don't know about western European folk traditions, then just don't talk about them, or ask about them, or at least don't go off as if you knew about them (and you've been asked to show a bit of self-restraint in that respect before). Next you're going to tell the unsuspecting that pianos are not used in western European folk traditions, and that all western European folk musicians stand on their head while playing.

It appears you are confusing my reference to scale with a reference to instrument. A piano is a chromatic instrument but when you play western european folk songs on a piano you effectively select a series of notes, which, when put in sequential order will give you the scale or mode of the piece. And that will be diatonic one, in this sense:-

49. Every diatonic scale contains five tones and two semi-tones, the arrangement of which varies according to the mode.

ITM predominates with the Dorian, Mixolydian and Ionian modes all of which are diatonic. Each of them is an arrangement of 7 notes with two of them being semi-tones. Of these the latter two are major because the third interval is major in them and the former is minor for the 3rd in it is minor. The standard minor scale (Aeolian mode) also occurs in ITM. It too is diatonic. The following diatonics do not occur in ITM - Phrygian, Lydian and Locrian.

An example of a non diatonic scale used in european music (eastern and mediterranean) is hijaz kar which is a 7 note scale with 4 semitones
(tonic, semitone, tone and a half, semitone, tone, semitone, tone and a half, semitone to octave).

Getting back to my point. There is nothing abnormal about Mixolydian. It is quite normally diatonic and a major mode.

I am sorry if I came across as rude and I trust there is nothing in my post that would border on an ad hominem attack. I do feel that a wider appreciation of different traditions can sometimes emphasise commonalities, an emphasis which can contrast more deeply the salient differences, particularly if one is conmenting on a music which one loves and is loved by one's friends.

Good Day to you Bloomfield.

[BoneQuint]

Non diatonic scales are not used in western european folk traditions, in contrast to eastern european, mediterranean and "exotic" traditions which employ both diatonic and non diatonic scales.

if you don't know about western European folk traditions, then just don't talk about them, or ask about them, or at least don't go off as if you knew about them

It appears you are confusing my reference to scale with a reference to instrument. A piano is a chromatic instrument but when you play western european folk songs on a piano you effectively select a series of notes, which, when put in sequential order will give you the scale or mode of the piece. And that will be diatonic one, in this sense:-

49. Every diatonic scale contains five tones and two semi-tones, the arrangement of which varies according to the mode.

Is Swedish traditional music "western european"? Out of curiosity, knowing only a little about Swedish music, I checked Henrik Norbeck's site, and this is the second tune I looked at:



In which all the Gs are sharp, giving a scale of 3 "tones," 3 "semi-tones," and one "tone and a half" (tonic, tone, semitone, tone, tone, semitone, tone and a half, semitone to octave).

Non-diatonic, yes?

[SteveShaw]

The following diatonics do not occur in ITM - Phrygian, Lydian and Locrian.

I play diatonic harmonicas. I play Gillan's Apples, Paudy Scully's Slide and Cronin's Hornpipe, all of which have the tonic note G, on a D harmonica, which means I'm employing Lydian mode. I think.

[djm]

When I first get up in the morning I play in OMG mode, for the rest of the day I play in "me arse" mode until finally, late at night, I go into Oh, my goodness! What in the world? mode. Hope that helps your practise.

djm

[Bloomfield]

I am sorry if I came across as rude and I trust there is nothing in my post that would border on an ad hominem attack. I do feel that a wider appreciation of different traditions can sometimes emphasise commonalities, an emphasis which can contrast more deeply the salient differences, particularly if one is conmenting on a music which one loves and is loved by one's friends.

Good Day to you Bloomfield.

Well I thank you for your contrition. Makes me feel better. I am all for wider appreciation of different traditions. I follow what you say about Indian music with great interest.

But the notion that all Western European traditional music is based on diatonic scales is ludicrous. Pentatonic scales and six-tone scales abound, especially in Irish traditional music.

It is no problem that you don't fully understand what diatonic means; it is no problem that your familiarity with "Western European traditional Music" is limited (so is mine); but I cannot help but resent the tone of unimpeachable conviction with which you continue to get it wrong when you talk about this stuff.

[Bloomfield]

Is Swedish traditional music "western european"? Out of curiosity, knowing only a little about Swedish music, I checked Henrik Norbeck's site, and this is the second tune I looked at:



In which all the Gs are sharp, giving a scale of 3 "tones," 3 "semi-tones," and one "tone and a half" (tonic, tone, semitone, tone, tone, semitone, tone and a half, semitone to octave).

Non-diatonic, yes?

Yes, non-diatonic. There are no F or F# notes in the tune: Gapped scale. And all over "Western European folk music."

[Bloomfield]

Dug up an old Bloomfield post, explaining what diatonic means. Taken from this old thread.

This discussion reminds me of something that's bothered me for awhile: why the word "diatonic"? A "pentatonic" scale has 5 notes in the scale -- that makes sense to me; the root "pent" means five. So shouldn't the ordinary 7-note scale be "heptatonic"? Why does the "di" in "diatonic" not mean two?

Sarah

This is for what it's worth. Dia- does not mean two there, but "through". (compare words like diameter or diaspora.) I think the classic definition of a diatonic scale is one made up of 5 whole-tone and 2 half-tone intervals. The "through" part means that no interval is larger than a whole-tone interval (or technically speaking, no interval is larger than half a perfect fourth). This matters for tuning, and refers to the Greek genera, or types of tetrachords (diatonic, enharmonic, chromatic). Sorry you asked, eh?

[SteveShaw]

In the world of harmonicas a diatonic harp is merely one which plays do-re-mi scales with no accidentals. The "opposite" is a chromatic harmonica. Most people I know would regard music in, say, a pentatonic scale (e.g. Auld Lang Syne) as "diatonic." It has no accidentals. It just doesn't happen to use all the notes of the diatonic scale that applies to it.

[Bloomfield]

In the world of harmonicas a diatonic harp is merely one which plays do-re-mi scales with no accidentals. The "opposite" is a chromatic harmonica. Most people I know would regard music in, say, a pentatonic scale (e.g. Auld Lang Syne) as "diatonic." It has no accidentals. It just doesn't happen to use all the notes of the diatonic scale that applies to it.

I think you're right that diatonic is often used as the opposite of chromatic, which makes sense when speaking of instruments, but not so much when speaking of tunes or music generally.

Tal was insisting that only 7-note scales are used in Western European trad music:

......
(I think it is in mixolydian rather than a "normal" diatonic scale).

mixolydian is diatonic as are all 7 note relatives of "the" major scale.
Any 7 note scale, which covers an octave and which includes 2 semitones is diatonic. If you take any major scale (ionian mode) and use each of its notes as a keynote for a new scale you will get a series of diatonic modes of scale, each obtaining a different arrangement of the diatonic formula.

Non diatonic scales are not used in western european folk traditions, in contrast to eastern european, mediterranean and "exotic" traditions which employ both diatonic and non diatonic scales.

Just as a general proposition, I think speaking of modes (ionian, dorian, etc etc) is useful in understanding ITM---to a point. The terms, after all, derive from a very different setting (ancient Greek music and medieval gregorian chant). In particular, I think that sometimes assigning modes or even tonal centers to tunes is forced and not a helpful tool to understanding. Also, intonation is probably as important in ITM as tonality and scales or modes (especially if you approach the whole question with an equal-temprament mindset and think that an B is a B is a B. The B will sound different in tune in D major (ionion) than it would in a tune in A Dorian. The whole modes in ITM thing started in the seventies I think (Breathnac wrote about it), and today I am not sure that it really is much more than a metaphor: useful in some context, not useful in others.

[SteveShaw]

Also, intonation is probably as important in ITM as tonality and scales or modes (especially if you approach the whole question with an equal-temprament mindset and think that an B is a B is a B. The B will sound different in tune in D major (ionion) than it would in a tune in A Dorian. The whole modes in ITM thing started in the seventies I think (Breathnac wrote about it), and today I am not sure that it really is much more than a metaphor: useful in some context, not useful in others.

I do have an equal temperament mindset, for two reasons. First, on any given diatonic harp (say a D harp) I play in different modes: Ionian, Mixolydian, Dorian, Aeolian and Lydian. Not just Ionian mode, the "key" of the harp. I need some consistency in intervals when switching as I do from one mode to another in a set on the same harmonica. Second, all the plucky guys in the session use cheapie tuners to get their axes in tune, so they're all in Equal. I can't afford to join the Just intonation mafia!

[TheSpoonMan]

The following diatonics do not occur in ITM - Phrygian, Lydian and Locrian.

I play diatonic harmonicas. I play Gillan's Apples, Paudy Scully's Slide and Cronin's Hornpipe, all of which have the tonic note G, on a D harmonica, which means I'm employing Lydian mode. I think.

And I play Connaughtman's rambles ending on F# (though most of the song isn't very prevailingly phrygian, but still).

Just as a general proposition, I think speaking of modes (ionian, dorian, etc etc) is useful in understanding ITM---to a point. The terms, after all, derive from a very different setting (ancient Greek music and medieval gregorian chant). In particular, I think that sometimes assigning modes or even tonal centers to tunes is forced and not a helpful tool to understanding. Also, intonation is probably as important in ITM as tonality and scales or modes (especially if you approach the whole question with an equal-temprament mindset and think that an B is a B is a B. The B will sound different in tune in D major (ionion) than it would in a tune in A Dorian. The whole modes in ITM thing started in the seventies I think (Breathnac wrote about it), and today I am not sure that it really is much more than a metaphor: useful in some context, not useful in others.

Not totally sure what you're saying here. ITM has modes because the modes are evident in the songs. Mode just means 'this song or part of a song" is made up of this pattern of notes from tonality X, and harks back to tonality X". I'm probably misunderstanding something, tho...

What do you mean by intonation? Like, different types of temperaments? But we paly in equal temperament, pipers play in just tuning (right?.... ), and if you paly in pythagorean or mean tone or whatever, it all basically sounds the same, or at least recognizable tunes and styles of music...

Also- It's actually uncanny how similar Gregorian chant is to Irish music, especially the vocal traditions. You find a lot of the same types of melodic organization, even specific motives, between them. Gregorian chant's in a lot of ways the foundation of Western music, so I don't see how it could not have been a heavy influence, directly and indirectly, on Irish music. For one thing, if you hear a certain style of music every week for all your life, and it's the same music your fathers, grandfathers, etc. heard, it's going to stick on you. For another, like I said, you can find some very specific things in chant and later medieval music that are similar to things in Irish music.

For example, this has nothing to do with mode, but just to demonstrate: the use of time and prolation in medieval music- under a certain type of notation used in the Middle Ages, tune's rhythm is defined by its the number of "feet" (perfect time- 3 feet, imperfect time- 2 feet), and the number of minims (kinda like an eighth note) in that beat (greater prolation- 3 minims, lesser prolation- 2 minims). The "feet" were kinda like beats- and I've heard it said that sometimes- like in dance music- the first of each beat tended to be accented or lengthened slightly. So you have four combinations of time and prolation, which are rough equivalents to 9/8, 6/8, 3/4, and 2/4 time signatures in modern notation, but are actually much more similar to the rhythmic organization of slip jigs, single and double jigs, waltzes, and reels/hornpipes (though they're a lot more flexible rhythmically than ours- but classical music's bizarro liek that). So there you go