What key is this tune in?

[Blaydo]

I'm sure you're all familiar with this popular jig, can someone please tell me what key it's actually in? My understanding was that because it has 2 sharps noted at the start (f and c sharps) that this would indicate that the tune is in D major. However it also seems to have c naturals as well which I tought was weird having both types of C notes in the same tune.

Having compared the tune to other versions (http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/544) on JC's and the session.org I noticed they all had only f sharp noted at the start of the score. Like as if it was written in the key of G and all C's are natural, but all the other notes seemed the same. I've just learnt it as it's written below using both C naturals and C sharps and been playing it on a normal D whistle. I hope thats ok??

I'm just wondering what key it's in and if I keep playing it this way will it be ok for other musicians at a session? I don't want to freak them out with some weirdo key.

[carrie]

It's D mixolydian, meaning the notes in the scale that define the mode are D, E, F# G, A, B, Cnat, D. In my opinion it makes more sense to notate as if it were in D major and then put accidentals by the Cs than to write it as if the key were G major, which it isn't. D is clearly the "home" note. You're fine playing it on a D whistle. And you're fine going back and forth between C#s and C naturals; the intonation of those 7ths (7th degree of the scale) is usually and delightfully flexible.

Carol

[colomon]

In my opinion it makes more sense to notate as if it were in D major and then put accidentals by the Cs than to write it as if the key were G major, which it isn't. D is clearly the "home" note.

IMO you're wrong here. Key signature has never (to the best of my knowledge) indicated the home note; it merely indicates how many sharps or flats are present normally. That, combined with the home note, tells you what key you are in.

For instance, if a piece was in B minor, you wouldn't write it with five sharps and then use (natural) accidentals on half of the notes. You would write it with two sharps. Likewise, if you see a piece with one sharp in the key signature, it can be G major, D mix, E minor, etc.

[Denny]

me too...

given: D mixolydian
one sharp, D tonic
C# is an accidental

[carrie]

Well, it's called relative minor for a reason. It is the minor relative to the major key. But you're right that the minors are in a different category and the key signature wouldn't indicate "home" note. I was responding to the question in the post, which was between G and D, and I think the home note idea makes it clear that this should be notated in D and not G.

Maybe it's all thought about differently in Irish music; I am bringing my background in classical music theory into the picture. But most of the notations I've seen of Dmix tunes are like the one reproduced in the initial post.

Carol

[Byll]

From Colomon:

IMO you're wrong here. Key signature has never (to the best of my knowledge) indicated the home note; it merely indicates how many sharps or flats are present normally. That, combined with the home note, tells you what key you are in.

From Byll:

I truly do not see what is wrong with Carol's analysis of the melodic profile. In classical western harmony, two sharps indicates either D Major, or its relative minor - b minor. In this instance, the 2 sharps and the 'home' note indicate D Major. The tune is normally played with some of the seventh steps lowered. If one wishes to refer to the resulting momentary scale as mixolydian, 'tis OK. I have found this whole rocking back and forth between standard and lowered 7th scale steps to be quite the norm in music of the British Isles. It is, as Carol states, 'delightful.'

Be well, all.
Byll

[Unseen122]

My question, who cares? Either way it has one sharp whether you write it with two and put in accidentals or not. FWIW, D mixolydian is the relative mixolydian to G major.

[colomon]

Byll, that's exactly my point. Two sharps and a home note of D indicates D major. That is completely misleading here, because this tune is not in D major, it's in D mixolydian.

You can do all sorts of quibbling about how to notate D mix -- after all, the most correct answer might well be to notate a C which is somwhere between natural and sharp. But notating it as one sharp with a home note of D instantly says "D mix" to anyone who is paying attention. Notating as two sharps with a home note of D gets you off on the wrong track thinking it is D major.

[Denny]

Ah, he sez...after getting to use the PC on the local net that will let him see the JPG...

I wouldn't have called it D Mix in the first place...

[carrie]

But notating it as one sharp with a home note of D instantly says "D mix" to anyone who is paying attention.

It doesn't say that to me, but as I said, I have years of classical music theory training to wade through as I approach Irish music. Like just about anyone with training in western music, I would see one sharp as G or em. I don't want to go any further--I think, Sol, that neither of us will persuade the other--but speaking just for myself, one glance at a notation that has two sharps and a C natural nails it for me right away as D mix. If I saw only one sharp and a D at the beginning or end of a tune, I'd wonder if the melody was simply starting or ending on the 5th, which is common enough in Irish music. Once I heard it I'd know, but I'd know faster if it's notated the way I described.

I agree about that slippery C/C# tone. I've heard it called C supernatural, which I like a lot.

Best wishes,
Carol

[Chiffed]

I see this form of key notation often. If it's wrong, then it's wrong often enough to be accepted as common practice sooner or later; notation is a living language, isn't it?

[dubhlinn]

Interesting discussion.

If I was at the same sesssion as Blaydo, I would tell the guitarist/bouzouki player that it's in D, but watch out for the C every now and then. Hearing it once around everything should fall into place and then the supernatural bit kicks in...

The accidental is not uncommon in Irish music and if the guitar/bouzouki knows anything at all he will "feel" it first time round and then just settle into it.

I sometimes feel that more playing and less discussing is the way forward.

Slan,
D.

[Byll]

'Tis interesting, and now I see why we were talking in circles. Carol has nailed it. She and I share similar backgrounds. My education is in classical western music, and I taught advanced Music Theory and Composition for a lot of years. All of that theory is based on the harmonic concepts and practices of Bach and the guys. Two sharps = D Major and b relative minor. I now see the logic of Sol's statements. While they violate classical theory practices, they make sense.

Peace.
Byll

[dubhlinn]

'Tis getting more interesting by the minute.

Carols comments are spot on and perfect.

In my experience of sessions however, people would know the tunes and the key they are usually played in. Should anybody ever inquire as to what key a particular tune is in they would be informed..D..G..Am..Em or on the odd occasion A.
It would be unknowm , in my day, to use expressions like Dmix and such...and relatives are the people you are related to.

I honestly believe that there is far to much talk about the theory of music among newcomers to the music. Learn the tunes, understand their moods, get into the flow of it and play.

The music only lives when it is played. You don't need to know all the theoretical stuff to understand the music , all you have to do is play it.

Respect to all,
D.

[colomon]

Byll and Carol, I think the only difference between our musical backgrounds is my education included the different modes before I got to properly learning about harmony. Irish music came much later.

When I was seriously taught writing music notation, the bedrock principle was that your goal was to make the music easily read. On that alone, notating the key signature as the actual sharps or flats used in the piece is a clear winner -- it simply requires less effort to read. I would be really surprised if you could cite a serious modern work on music notation that suggested otherwise. I think forcing the key signature to conform to major or minor is just a habit from a musical education that skimped on the full set of modes.

At any rate, if you go into the traditional music world thinking one sharp must mean G or e minor, you will be led astray. Tunes notated as an A tonic with one sharp in the key signature (ie A Dorian) are extremely common in Irish music. If you tried writing it as A minor with a lot of F-sharp accidentals, or worse yet, A major with a lot of C and G naturals, you would be regarded as eccentric.

Likewise, it is normal (though I admit perhaps not universal) practice to notate D Mixolydian with just one sharp in the key signature. If you expect otherwise, you will just sow confusion for yourself.