A warning for East Durham

[patsky]

Hello pipers.

I notice that the Tionol this year, as a few times in the past, is again being held in East Durham New York this year. Too bad!

In July my wife and I went to East Durham for the Irish Arts/Celtic week to spend. vacation time rolling around in Irish music. East Durham is one of the old retirement Catskill resorts that was quite popular in the 1940s/50s for the Irish. There was also Jewish Resorts … Grossingers’ for example and others.

With the advent of cheap air transportation, customers started going to Europe and the popularity of the resorts waned. and the placed sank into decay. Why go to an Irish resort when you could go to Ireland. Even after the Irish festival started there ( it’s been going on for 10 years or so) and money started coming in, the owners appear to have made very little attempt to update their facilities and even less to change their attitude of rudeness and dismissal..

Unfortunately the hotels in East Durham have not been maintained and have degenerated into low class squalor. When we first arrived we were shown our room, that we paid $800.00 for. The place smelled of decay. The floors were damp, I turned on the air condition and no air came out. I opened the unit myself and discovered that the filter has an inch of dirt covering it. The bathroom was full of mold and there was no hot water and the water pressure was so low that the dribble of water made it difficult to get the soap off.. The bed was warped and swayed, like a hammock, and the sheets were so thin that you could read through them. We checked out a few friends rooms and theirs were just as bad. We complained but there were no more rooms but was told for another $200.00 more we could have one of their “best rooms”.

The price for our room included meals. The only word that comes to mind for our food was SWILL. For example on the menu was “Roast Beef au jus” The roast beef was heated sandwich meat the "au jus" was canned gravy; on the side was a delectable pile of canned peas and powdered potatoes….yum. For breakfast my wife ate cereal, it’s had to hurt that, I usually have eggs it’s hard to hurt those but some how they managed. It reminds me of a little poem that I learned from my late father in law:

“What’ll you have?” The waiter said as he casually picked his nose.
“Two hard boiled eggs, you son of a bitch--- you can’t get your fingers on those”

Breakfast was saved every morning by the great flute player Mike Rafferty who chatted away and told stories.

We later learned that there was a very nice Restaurant just out of town run by a small Christian community that served very good food. We then ate most our meals there.

I do want to say that the music was excellent and we had a pretty good time as long as we stayed away from the Hotel. Too late I learned that if you are willing to drive a few miles that you can stay in a Holiday Inn or Days End for much less money. We were booked up until Sunday but left on Friday because we could not take it any longer.

In my opinion, the best thing that could happen to East Durham would be to bring in the Bull Dozers, scrape the place clean, and start again. If not it… would make a very good dump. Incidentally this is our third time in East Dirham. You might ask, If it’s so bad why keep coming back? I just kept hoping that things would improve. Boy was I wrong. This is it.

If you are going to the Tionol, stay out of town and pack a lunch.


All the best,
Pat Sky

[bradhurley]

Note that none of this, however, applies to the Fern Cliff, where the tionol is held and where everyone is staying. I've stayed at the Fern Cliff several times and the rooms are clean, the place is well cared for, the food is decent. No complaints.

[vanfleet]

Brad;
Eh . . . the reason I have not returned to the East Coast Tionol since the first one held in East Durham, is precisely because I found the Fern Cliff to be a dump, pretty much exactly as Pat Sky describes his own Catskills experience.

And before we hear the chorus of "Pat, if you hate it so much, why don't you run your own Tionol" we should remember that Pat DID run the East Coast Tionol in Chapel Hill, and it was a very successful and pleasant experience. The man knows whereof he speaks!
JVF

[bradhurley]

Brad;
Eh . . . the reason I have not returned to the East Coast Tionol since the first one held in East Durham, is precisely because I found the Fern Cliff to be a dump, pretty much exactly as Pat Sky describes his own Catskills experience.

And before we hear the chorus of "Pat, if you hate it so much, why don't you run your own Tionol" we should remember that Pat DID run the East Coast Tionol in Chapel Hill, and it was a very successful and pleasant experience. The man knows whereof he speaks!
JVF

Before this thread is locked (I'm sure it won't take long), I should say that the reason the tionol keeps being held at the Fern Cliff is that so many attendees wanted to come back. It can't be that bad! I've stayed at much worse places than the Fern Cliff; I've been going to E. Durham since 1996.

[Piobairi Uilleann Inis Fa]

I have attended IAW each of the last three years with 3 of my children, and am booked already for next year. I have attended the past two Tionals at the Fern Cliff. I will agree that many of the establishments can be acurately compared to Pat's description (I changed the name for Erins Melody's rooms up behind the Welden house to "The hole on the hill" aka THOTH). After that first year, we changed to Gavins "Golden Hill Resort". The improvement was a 1000% in both cleanliness, service, and food. The rooms aren't the Waldorf or anything, but this is the Catskills. It is family run, and generally is sold out for IAW long in advance (returning guests get first dibs when checking out). The food is of a much higher standard, with home cooked meals and items like salmon and prime rib. However, it is also more costly than THOTH which is dirt cheap. The message here is that you get what you pay for, and if its dirt cheap, its probably dirty.

I have found the Fern Cliff to be between THOTH and Gavins. I am told that it was much better there when it was owned and managed by Mike Dillon (a fine fellow he is) and his wife (RIP) a half dozen years ago or so. The food could be much improved, but the price is also very reasonable. I did have a great time at all the events in ED and like the compact nature of the location (no need to get back in your car until going home). Perhaps Gavins might be more appealing but it will come at a cost which could impact attendance. Gavins handles many family reunions (it is very family oriented) and might work a special deal for future years. It has many rooms for classes (beyond just the dining hall) and has a good sized pub.

Just some observations. But I would not like to disparage in any way, the considerable effort by Sussane and everyone else, as I had a terrific time each of the past two years. Thanks, and I am looking forward to next week!

Neil

[johnkerr]

It would be helpful if Pat were to mention whether or not he's ever stayed at the Fern Cliff when he was in East Durham. I've been to East Durham four times, three times for CIAW and once for the tionol in 2004. I've stayed at the Fern Cliff twice, at the tionol in '04 and again this past July for CIAW. My experience mirrors Brad's. The Fern Cliff is not the lap of luxury by any means, but it is a good basic accommodation and the food's not bad at all. There are places in East Durham that fit Pat's description, and probably a few that are even worse. Caveat emptor is definitely a good watchword when booking accomodation there. But there are a few good places, and the Fern Cliff is one of them.

Now it could be that Pat did stay at the Fern Cliff and didn't like it. As they say, different strokes for different folks. But it would be a shame if the Fern Cliff got damned because of a bad experience Pat had somewhere else.

But with all that said, I haven't returned for the tionol since that time I went in 2004. But the only reason for that is that I'm not a piper. So y'all have fun there - I'm sure it will be good!

[skipjam]

I'll chime in on this as well. Pat's warning should be duly noted as I heard a couple of stories during the Irish Arts Week regarding establishments that did not live up to even minimal expectations. East Durham has seen better days; however, some motels and restaurants there are very clean and comfortable. I've been staying at The Fern Cliff for a few years now for Irish Arts Week, and there is no cause for worry with our host resort. As has been very accurately stated, "it is not the Waldorf," but it is clean, and Con and his family work very hard to ensure that our needs are met and that we are comfortable. Con and his staff will keep the Guiness flowing until the last person heads to bed. There are no concerns with playing music until dawn, and your room is only steps away from any session. (If you are considering staying somewhere else in East Durham, and you have not been to East Durham before, heed Pat's advice and ask any number of people who browse this Forum where the best places are.)

East Durham and the Fern Cliff have been a popular destination for the East Coast Tionol, for sure. I would venture to guess that this is for several reasons. One factor that keeps me going to that area is the proximity to all of the great musicians in the NYC/New Jersey area. East Durham is in the "backyard" of great and important musicians such as Mike Rafferty, Mike McHale, Matty Connelly, and others. They not only show up, but they are there to play! What an amazing resource for all of us who aspire to play this music.

Thanks Susanne and all of the others who make this gathering a success each year. I hope to see old friends and make some new ones in a couple of weeks!

Skip

[Mypipes]

Pat ,
You are correct there are dumps in the Catskills but there is also beauty and great places to stay. Try the Deer Watch Inn B&B ....Breakfast to die for. Take ride on Cunningham Road for a taste of Ireland. Hike up the Caterskill Falls. The mountains ..the colors.
I am shocked and dismayed that you would post this one week before the event. The warning may have been called for but think of the poor volunteer organizers sitting there with Cancellations due to the cloud of Pat Skye (PUN INTENDED). BAD timing Bad choice of public discoarse. Notwithstanding, I have the utmost respect and admiration of all that you have done and continue to do for the Piping World. You are an icon! Now suck it up and stop raining on our parade!!!!
Next year we'll all go to Ireland for the East Coast Tional?

[malanstevenson]

Hi Pat,

what establishment are you talking about? Sounds like the Norman Bates Motel, and I want to add it to my 'run away screaming' list. You can see from the road that there are some real tatty old places in town - I don't mind that kind of 'character' if I'm there for a few tunes and pints, but I agree I'd rather not sleep in it.

Ditto, however, to the positive comments about the Fern Cliff above - clean rooms, middle of the road food, lovely grounds, and above all great atmosphere. Con is eager to please and loves hosting this event, and Fern Cliff is nothing like the nightmare described above. For me anyway, having everything in one place enhances the social atmosphere, as opposed to having concert, class venue, lodging and food scattered all over town. There's very little to do in the town, but then again who goes to a tionól for the shopping, lattés and art galleries? Plenty of outdoorsy stuff in the area for bored spouses. I virtually never left the grounds of Fern Cliff anyway, except to eat at Darby's, which BTW has great pub grub.

I think one key piece of the equation is also the reasonable cost, since I believe the event has been running in the black, no mean feat when you consider the costs of flying in guests, etc.

Disclaimer - my folks live not too far away from East Durham, so that's an added bonus for me, but even if they didn't, I'd still like the place - no, really. That being said, if the decision is ever made to move it, I vote for Boston - expensive as hell, but some great pubs.

The sad irony is that I've already blown my travel budget for this year (says my domestic CFO), so I'll have to miss the event for the first time in four years, which is killing me since I really wanted to meet Tommy Keane and hear him play. And get D'Arcy way-shted and make off with his pipes. Have fun, ya'll.


Cheers,
Mark

[Beau Comiseau]

Oh Dear... I'm committed to a lot of money on accomdations for this event, not to mention airline tickets, rental car, etc. After hearing this, I may have to reconsider and cancel my reservations.

Thanks for the warning, Mr. Skye.

[glands]

Are you sure that East Durham is not in East Tennessee?

East Durham Tionol
Catskills Tionol
BedBug Tionol

Take your pick!

[fgibbons]

Are you sure that East Durham is not in East Tennessee?

East Durham Tionol
Catskills Tionol
BedBug Tionol

Take your pick!

Sorry "glands" and PatSky, I just can't agree. This will be my third time heading out to this tionól (I think that means I've been to all of them), in East Durham, and I'm looking forward to it, again.

It's easy to knock the place: it's a complete anachronism in every sense.

* the very concept of an ethnically based vacation village, a home away from home (whether you're Irish, Jewish, or something else) seems crazy these days

* the decor of the place (if you love wood paneling, especially the fake kind, this is the place for you)

* the food (it's improved considerably from the first year). It'll keep body and soul together. The food is not meant to nourish your soul, that's what the music is for.

Really, none of these work in favour of a place like the Fern Cliff.


But, in my mind, and this is a huge BUT, they have to be offset by the factors which are distinctly IN its favour:

* the fact that we get to take the entire place over for a weekend - no grousing neighbours, complaining about late-night sessions

* the enthusiasm of the hosts (Con and his wife) in catering to our whims; they're neither bewildered by nor disdainful of our enthusiasm - they seem to get a kick out of our joy in playing music. I've played in too many places where my presence is merely tolerated because I'm paying (or paid) to be there. How nice to be in a place where it appears to rise above a mere business transaction.

* the fact that we get to park our cars on Friday and don't have to get back in till Monday (if you don't drive much, or don't like to drive, this is a great benefit); no drunk-driving; no expensive taxi-rides

* the fact that by all staying and eating in the one place, the prices are kept very reasonable, which means that the tionól can continue to bring in teachers from Ireland, and provide continuity to the tradition of piping that we have started in North America

* the centrality of its location, at least for those in the northeast: within an easy day's drive from Ontario, Québec, New England, Pennsylvania, New York, and probably a few other places. (Forgive my Yankee myopia.) In these days of airport craziness, the less flying, the better, especially when it's just for a weekend, and a holiday one at that! I guess if you're not within a day's drive, that won't do you much good, but the fact is that there are a great many pipers who are

* 85 bucks for as much tuition as you can possibly take in, from ALL the teachers present (the teachers rotate, so all students get classes at their appropriate level with all the teachers). Check the schedule for details, but it's typically four hours a day, for 2.5 days. Your head will be spinning (in a good way).

* it's just really streamlined: there's no waiting around for the waitress to come back with the check, so you can drive back for your next class. That's because there's no check! It's all included: you eat, you talk, you get up and stroll over for the next class. Simplicity is worth a lot to me. So are ideas that save me time.

Yeah, I know it's possible that there's a newly constructed modern chain motel off an interestate somewhere that could offer us nicer rooms at a rate comparable to what we're getting here (though I'm not sure about that: a bed for three nights and 3.5 days of three square meals for $225 - that's a bargain anywhere). But we'd have to give up most of the rest of what we get here, I think, and personally I think that'd be a shame.

These things don't organise themselves (as you know, Pat). I think Susanne's been very solicitous of input: basically, we keep going back, because each year she asks, and the people who go therewant ot come back. I know it's a self-selecting group, but what more can you do?

If you've tried the east coast tionól before, and didn't like it, well that's disappointing. There are certainly ways it could be improved, and if you have concrete suggestions, make them known.

If you've never been, I think you owe it to yourself to give it a shot, at least once. You'll be missing out! See you there.

-Frank
P.S. In case you're wondering, I'm a lazy basmati with no involvement in the organisation of this tionól; my only interest in the east coast tionól is musical.

[vanfleet]

Frank notes:

These things don't organise themselves (as you know, Pat). I think Susanne's been very solicitous of input: basically, we keep going back, because each year she asks, and the people who go therewant ot come back. I know it's a self-selecting group, but what more can you do?

That is the rub for me, Frank. The people who are being asked "do you like it here" are the people who do . . . who have returned to Ferncliff. A more general poll from the organizers (say, on the Chiff and Fipple Boards) might get a different answer from the folks who are staying away!

This is the second year I've seen the announcement for the East Coast Tionol at East Durham and sighed and said "I'll pass." I attended the Piper's Gathering instead, and based on my experience there, I don't agree with any argument that a tionol cannot be convenient, inexpensive, and *comfortable.*

So, I'm acting like an old f*rt. I should pitch a tent. I'll stop b*tching about it and just say that if anyone wants my help organizing a tionol anywhere other than East Durham, I'm willing and able.
JVF

[wgority]

Whatever happened to moving the East Coast Tionol around on an annual or bi-annual basis as it did in the past? I seem to recall a very nice event taking place in Pittsburgh in 1994 or 95 (?) (at least I think that was when it occured).

Having never attended a tionol in East Durham due to scheduling difficulties, I'll not offer comment on that. Couldn't an "east coast" event truly encompass more of the east coast?

Bill

[bradhurley]

Whatever happened to moving the East Coast Tionol around on an annual or bi-annual basis as it did in the past?

This seems to be a sore point for some, but basically what happened was that after the 2004 tionol at the Fern Cliff, many people who came to that event felt the tionol had finally found its ideal location and there was no longer any reason to move. I understand that this sentiment is not shared by everyone, especially those East Coasters who live farther south or those who would prefer nicer accommodations or food, but on the morning I left I heard a lot of participants saying that it should be held there again the next year. I assume the same thing happened in 2005; I couldn't make it.

When a lot of people want to come back, and when you consider the fact that organizing the tionol in a new location is a lot of work, it only makes sense to stay there until someone comes up with a better place and is willing to do the work to make it happen there.