Can you EVER ever ever trust a used car dealership...

[emmline]

I have 2 Subarus, but no Saabs! Is there a connection?
Hondas and Toyotas I would generally trust as well.

[dwinterfield]

The heck with buying a car - I'd be happy to find a dang mechanic I could trust (Tyler - you wanna move to Cincinnati???).

Last Wed my car began to overheat. I "caught" it, turned off the air, and managed to limp it home. We were going out of town for the weekend, so Tom didn't want to work on it - we took it to where we had, up to this point, been pretty pleased with service.
I was told it was the gasket on the manifold. Ok, I hadn't seen any puddles of antifreeze, etc. - so that made sense.
Picked it up Monday (we told them we were going to be gone, so they could take their time) - about $550 dollars later.
I drove it 2 miles, radiator idiot light comes on, "smoke" from engine. Water and antifreeze spraying out of the water pump.
Tom took it back to the mechanic - they said they'd fix the water pump for $250. Ah - NO - if it was the water pump, why did you do the gasket?

Tom put a water pump on it yesterday ($25). It ran fine this morning to work, but the idiot light is still on. I"ll check the radiator overflow before going home (and look to make sure it's still not leaking). I have no idea what I"ll do about the idiot light if the temperature is staying ok (black electricians tape???).

I hate cars.........

I hate these stories. 15 yrs ago, when we moved to our current home, I stopped off at a speed shop in the next town for an oil change. The guy behind the counter had the voice of an FM jazz disc jockey. I sent my wife there with a problem (I forget the details) that we expected to cost several hundred bucks. When she picked up the car, they explained that we'd misunderstood the problem. They'd fixed it and the bill was $26. We've been there ever since and more often than not the bill ends up less than expecetd. They refuse to replace parts that don't need it. The explain things in plain english. Need I say we don't go anywhere else, unless they tell us it's a dealer issue. They don;t do everything and they don't pretend.

The only advice I can pass on is that they are the last place one would think to go for routine repairs to boring US and Japanese cars. They build and race dragsters. They sell all those chome add ons to trick up your 356... ... monster car. The thing is they're honest, they love cars and they love working on cars, all cars.

[Tyler]

Most of the time performance mechanics know whats what better than your average minimum wage wrench turner at Pep Boys. They've been doing it all their lives, generally, and mostly for themselves, and so render service that they would appreciate getting themselves.

[dwinterfield]

I have 2 Subarus, but no Saabs! Is there a connection?
Hondas and Toyotas I would generally trust as well.

My apologies for a misplaced Saab rant. Never had a Subaru. I gather Toyotas, Honda and VWs are all rated at the top, Subarus and Nissans a bit lower. Had a used maxima for years - great car. Last year, I drove a low-milage Altima rental for 1000 miles or so. It worked fine, but felt cheap.

[Loren]

Most of the time performance mechanics know whats what better than your average minimum wage wrench turner at Pep Boys. They've been doing it all their lives, generally, and mostly for themselves, and so render service that they would appreciate getting themselves.

Ditto what he said.

The worst are typically the dealership service centers, because that's how dealerships make a huge portion of their money, on service, so they are going to go down the list of "Possible causes" and you better bet they aren't going to start fixing the dirt cheap stuff first.

Also, the service writers at the desk, aren't mechanics, so you usually never get to talk to the mechanic who works on your car, which really disrupts the important communication process necessary to correctly diagnose problems. In addition, since the mechanic never has to face you (the service writers, or the service manager address customers with problems), there is a feeling of less accountability and respect among the mechanics in that situation, as opposed to going to a place where the guy who works on your car also being the guy who has to take the heat when you come back pissed that you just spent $500. and your car still doesn't work right.

Finally, the guys who do high-performance stuff typically really love what they do, as opposed to some guy who's just punching the clock, and that makes a huge difference, in enthusiasm, depth of knowledge, and also the quality and care of the work done. Not always true, but it's often the case.

It's amazing how difficult it is to find a really good, honest mechanic these days.

Loren

[Loren]

I gather Toyotas, Honda and VWs are all rated at the top, Subarus and Nissans a bit lower.

Absolutely not with regards to VW's, they have had some of the lowest customer satisfaction and reliability ratings of ANY car maker (import or domestic) for a number of years now - the product looks good, and offers good performance, but terrible reliability, and service - they often initially refuse to cover bit ticket warranty issues, forcing you to waste a huge amount of time appealing up the chain of command in order to get things fixed or replaced, things that they know have problems (becuse they've issued Technical Service Bulletins on them) but refuse to publicly admit are faulty.

With any repair item that you are being asked to pay for on a newer vehicle, from any manufacturer, search the web for TSB's for that problem, for that make and model car. Try searching the alldata consumer site. If you find a TSB covering the particular problem and/or part you are being charged parts and labor for, copy the TSB report, and bring it to the service manager's attention before paying. Tell him you are unwilling to pay for service on a known existing problem. Sometimes you will have to argue, but usually, the will give in, because they realize that they are open to liability lawsuits, etc. because their company has already put in writing the Technical Service Bulletin stating that there is a known issue with a particular part or system.

This happened to me several times with VW, both with small items (a/c related parts) and large (my transmission), I eventually got everything replaced for free, but only because I was able to provide copies of the technical service bulletins issued by their own company, which is lame, because they have all this info, but don't want to admit it, however walk in with a copy from AllData, and watch their faces - as the commercial says "Priceless"


Loren

P.S. In case I didn't make it clear, Volkswagen Sucks! If you don't want years of expensive problems, buy a new or used Toyota, Nissan, or Honda. I'm not just saying this as the result of my experience with VW's (which I used to love) but also due to the experience of many friends and acquaintances, many of who had a number of the same problems I did: Faulty transmission, window motor regulators failing, sunroof problems, a/c problems, faulty coilpacks, etc. etc. etc. My VW spent much of it's first 2 years after rolling off the showroom floor, back in the service bay of the dealership, and so did the cars of a number of my friends

[Tyler]

I tell ya what Loren, we see more Audi/VWs come through our shop than any other single mark...
the greatest single repair done through our shop on those V-dubs is a partial or complete valvetrain replacement due to faulty belts breaking. Their valve clearences are so close that when those belts blow (I've seen them go as soon as 2k miles on a factory new belt) they beat the smithereens out of not only the valves but the lifters too. I've even seen one that had a fractured cam lobe. Their valves have a slight tendancy to splinter and come apart when impacted, as well, causing debris to chew up the cylinder walls and pistons. The worst case I ever saw in a newer VW was this feller who brought in a 2002 Jetta with a seized engine. His belt went after being changed by the dealership only 1k miles previous. The valves broke up and ate his internals and eventually caused the engine to seize. His whole engine was pretty well shot because of one faulty belt. Those things are a royal pain in the a s s.

[FJohnSharp]

You appear to be a member of the Saab cult. You're probably beyond hope but it just wouldn't be right to pass this on to another generation. My wife has this affliction. A couple of years ago she bought a new 9-3 against the advice of her brother, her mechanic and her friends. (As a husband, my guidance has no cedibility.) She knew what she was doing. Sure enough, little things break. They fix them for free of course. The ventilation system is incapable of keeping the windshield fog free. None of this matters. She loves her car. I'll never understand, but she's happy with it.

Apparenty in Sweden, families are either Volvo families or Saab familes, much like our grandfathers used to be either Ford or Chevy men.

[Loren]

I tell ya what Loren, we see more Audi/VWs come through our shop than any other single mark...
the greatest single repair done through our shop on those V-dubs is a partial or complete valvetrain replacement due to faulty belts breaking. Their valve clearences are so close that when those belts blow (I've seen them go as soon as 2k miles on a factory new belt) they beat the smithereens out of not only the valves but the lifters too. I've even seen one that had a fractured cam lobe. Their valves have a slight tendancy to splinter and come apart when impacted, as well, causing debris to chew up the cylinder walls and pistons. The worst case I ever saw in a newer VW was this feller who brought in a 2002 Jetta with a seized engine. His belt went after being changed by the dealership only 1k miles previous. The valves broke up and ate his internals and eventually caused the engine to seize. His whole engine was pretty well shot because of one faulty belt. Those things are a royal pain in the a s s.

It's just shameful, isn't it? The whole VW/Audi group is a mess. It's bad enough that they have known problems they don't even care to address like the timing belts, transmissions, coilpacks and window regulators, but most of their service departments treat customers like complete crap. It's amazing the different treatment that I'd get walking 3 yards from one dealer's VW/Audi service dept., over to the same dealership's BMW dept - like night and day. And it's not a price issue, because Audis are just as expensive as Beemers these days, and my VW GTI VR6 cost as much as the bottom of the line BMW coupe.

It's a shame, VW's used to be so cool.........


Loren

[Flyingcursor]

I used to always get my cars from private sellers and usually had good luck.

I got my last car from Avis in 2000. It was a '98 with 15000 miles for about 8k. Runs great. I did have to have the head gasket replaced a few weeks ago. Ouch!!!!

[Tyler]

It's just shameful, isn't it?


Loren

Even more shameful than having your family killed by ninjas and not being able to afford kung-fu lessons

I've rarely had to deal with VWs service department, but I can tell you they know jack sqwatt about what they're talkin about. If we usually keep an eye out at the Pick-n-Pull lot for vee-dubs and strip em when we can get em. It's far cheaper to buy salvage parts, then we only have to really charge for the labor after covering the part. The sad thing is, the salvage parts usually last as long as the factory new ones.

on a lighter note...I have a buddy who's been doing Subaru STi engine swaps into classic VWs. You wanna see something funny? Watch one of these babys spank a Corvette, ROFL.

[missy]

Apparenty in Sweden, families are either Volvo families or Saab familes, much like our grandfathers used to be either Ford or Chevy men.

(bold added by me...)

HEY! Am I that old or are you that young???? I've always been GM, Tom has always been Ford.........

[Denny]

HEY! Am I that old or are you that young???? I've always been GM, Tom has always been Ford.........

In a couple more years you'll get used to it...

[Tyler]

Apparenty in Sweden, families are either Volvo families or Saab familes, much like our grandfathers used to be either Ford or Chevy men.

(bold added by me...)

HEY! Am I that old or are you that young???? I've always been GM, Tom has always been Ford.........

MOPAR or NO CAR!!!

[Loren]

It's just shameful, isn't it?


Loren

Even more shameful than having your family killed by ninjas and not being able to afford kung-fu lessons

I have no fear, unlike the fellow in my avatar, because my Kung Fu is strong: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeRV5iNHwnw

I've rarely had to deal with VWs service department, but I can tell you they know jack sqwatt about what they're talkin about. If we usually keep an eye out at the Pick-n-Pull lot for vee-dubs and strip em when we can get em. It's far cheaper to buy salvage parts, then we only have to really charge for the labor after covering the part. The sad thing is, the salvage parts usually last as long as the factory new ones.

Yeah, that's cause they've all just recently been replaced, lol!!!

on a lighter note...I have a buddy who's been doing Subaru STi engine swaps into classic VWs. You wanna see something funny? Watch one of these babys spank a Corvette, ROFL.

Heh heh. A buddy of mine is really into cars - had a Jetta that he dumped for a WRX, which he modded up pretty good internally, then he bought a Lotus Elan which was a nightmare (duh), so he sold off the WRX and the Lotus to buy a...... a Dodge Super Hearse, lol! You know what I'm talkin' 'bout. There's no hope for the guy.

Loren