Card Counting

[Monster]

Ok, so why is it not allowed in a Casino? There are plenty of books out there that claim there are ways of counting cards (and then betting heavily when the time is right) that will actually produce an advantage for the player and not the house.

If a pit boss suspects that you are counting cards, or if you seem to be winning too much I believe they will just toss you out and say that you have a gambling problem or some such rubbish. How can they do this and still maintain that they are in the gambling business?

The reason I ask is that I met a guy that claimed he won 46k in a matter of a few weeks playing black jack, he ran into very little trouble with the casinos (according to him).

[Chiffed]

Card-counting works, if you can do it. It's 'legal' as long as you don't use human or electronic help (last I heard). How many cards in a shoe? How good's your memory? How much stock do you put in the word of a gambler?

My sister can count into a 5-deck shoe, and has a slight advantage over the house after about three hands, I think. Too bad she hates gambling even more than I do (and I only hate it 'cause I lose...).

[rebl_rn]

Ok, so why is it not allowed in a Casino? There are plenty of books out there that claim there are ways of counting cards (and then betting heavily when the time is right) that will actually produce an advantage for the player and not the house.

Casinos aren't in the gambling business - their business is making money off of people who gamble. So someone counting cards, while legal, makes the casino lose money, and they don't like that. I don't know if the pit boss claims you have a gambling problem - they don't have to, a casino has the right to refuse play to anyone.

Blackjack already has the smallest house advantage, and there are lots of strategies besides card counting that give the player more of an advantage (don't ask me what they are, I heard someone explain one once and it totally confused me).

From what I've heard, a big part of "getting away" with card counting or other strategies is to occasionally lose the big pot and to not try to win too much off of one casino.

But don't count on Blackjack to fund your retirement.

[Tyler]

Ok, so why is it not allowed in a Casino? There are plenty of books out there that claim there are ways of counting cards (and then betting heavily when the time is right) that will actually produce an advantage for the player and not the house.

From what I've heard, a big part of "getting away" with card counting or other strategies is to occasionally lose the big pot and to not try to win too much off of one casino.

bingo! you have to play the dealer like he was a poker opponent, not just your blackjack dealer. I have a buddy who's quite the rounder (has no regular job, just plays in Vegas every weekend), but he's also got a talent for numerical statistics and remembering statistical tables from books. Minus the cost of travel, he brings home about $900 a week.

No, that's what poker is for

But don't count on Blackjack to fund your retirement.

[Monster]

bingo! you have to play the dealer like he was a poker opponent, not just your blackjack dealer.

Aye, sounds like good advice. I've never played black jack in a casino, but if I were to do it I'd like to consider the "possibilities".

Right, gambler stories are a lot like fish stories, pretty fishy. I've even had people tell me that they have systems for beating the slot machines! I suppose there are some things you can do to slightly increase your chances there, but really a system for beating a slot machine? That sounds far fetched to me.

[Monster]

Double Post! Double Post!

How in the Jim Jam did that happen?

[djm]

There are several shows on Discovery about people who take the casinos to the cleaners. Yes, there have been card-counting schemes that were successful, and no, I don't understand it all, but from what I could gather, what these teams were doing was to not just have one card-counter at a game, but several, where they worked in concert to jack up the size of the pots, as well as cover each other so that it didn't appear that any one of them was a single big winner. Then they would pool their winnings at the end of the day.

The best I could make out of the explanations of card-counting in general was that winning hands tend to come in cycles, and the trick becomes recognizing the signs of these cycles to know when to bet heavy or light.

djm

[Tyler]

... a system for beating a slot machine? That sounds far fetched to me.

An older fellow on my staff used to work security in Vegas. Part of their job was to monitor the computer that controlled the slots. They're programmed to pay off on regular rotating schedules. They can't be "beat."

[Doug_Tipple]

I haven't played blackjack in Las Vegas for a long time, so I have to rely on my long-term memory here, and that isn't too good. If I remember correctly, the only way that you can get a slight advantage over the house in blackjack is if you have the ability to remember the cards (card counting) that have been played in preceeding hands. Since the house pays you 3 to 2 for a blackjack, it makes sense to increase your bidding when the remaining cards in the shoe are rich in aces, thus giving you a greater than average chance of getting a black jack. If you suddenly increase your bidding when cards are dealt from near the end of the shoe (which mostly likely will contain a number of decks of cards to lower the incidence of card counting), it will be obvious to the dealer and to the pit boss that you have been counting the cards that have been dealt in previous hands. An easy way for the house to subvert the winning intentions of card counters is for the dealer to suffle the cards more frequently, thus reducing the advantages of trying to count the cards. Card counters will leave the table and probably the casino at this point.

[Wombat]

It's possible to get an edge in blackjack if you are clever enough and have a good memory. If you stick to your system you must win in the long run. Those who make it obvious they have a system are banned I believe. If someone new is doing the curcuit with a system, news gets around and people get banned before they even get started in a new casino.

If you win very big, you have to get your money out of the casino. Gambling and the mob have more than a passing aquaintance, so good luck to you when you leave. Pretending to be just a little lucky is by far the best bet and you would need to move around constantly.

[BillChin]

There are relatively simple card counting systems that will give a player a slight edge, and more complex ones that increase that edge.

Casinos have been hit hard by professional card counting teams. They take a very dim view to anything that takes away their money. Pit bosses share this information with other casinos so the teams have to continue to recruit new people so that they can not be so easily banned.

I heard someone on the radio talking about recruiting for card counting teams. Young attractive women engineering majors are good recruits. They can handle the math, are above average in intelligence, and being young and good looking avoids the profiling that occurs.

The friend who won 46k, may not have been betting in patterns that are a sure sign of card counting. In other words, he may have just had a lucky streak. Casinos love people like that because they will usually be back and lose it all and then some. He may also be on a watch list and more big wins might get him banned.

[Monster]

An easy way for the house to subvert the winning intentions of card counters is for the dealer to suffle the cards more frequently

I don't see how that would help the house since ( no matter how you re-arrange them) the same cards would still be in the shoe! Casinos do however have different versions of black jack that I think card counting won't work against, so you have to be sure and play the correct game.

[Monster]

If you win very big, you have to get your money out of the casino. Gambling and the mob have more than a passing aquaintance, so good luck to you when you leave. Pretending to be just a little lucky is by far the best bet and you would need to move around constantly.

You mean possible broken legs, cement boots kinda thing?

Or do they just beat the crap out of you and take the money?

[BillChin]

An easy way for the house to subvert the winning intentions of card counters is for the dealer to suffle the cards more frequently

I don't see how that would help the house since ( no matter how you re-arrange them) the same cards would still be in the shoe! Casinos do however have different versions of black jack that I think card counting won't work against, so you have to be sure and play the correct game.

Card counting works best in single deck or double deck games that do not reshuffle until the shoe is dry. It is still effective in six deck and eight deck games where reshuffling is done half way through but the advantage is much less.

Most casinos used a six deck or eight deck shoe. The single deck games are rare and are watched closely because of the odds.

[Monster]

Ok, so in casino dealing, they won't play through the whole shoe? That doesn't seem fair!