NYT Article - Sunday Mag, On Language

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Tyghress
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NYT Article - Sunday Mag, On Language

Post by Tyghress »

There is an interesting article in the New York Times Sunday magazine section of 7/30/06. The column is called On Language, and the article titled Learning American, written by Marion McKeone, an Irish journalist. It is subtitled 'Saying what you mean versus meaning what you say', and addresses the way Irish natives use the Engligh language and how it differs from the way Americans do (and suggests why there are these lingual differences).

It should be required reading for anyone who crosses the pond, and serves as a reminder that what you heard is not necessarily what was said.
For Americans, the shortest distance between two points is a straight line. The idea is to get the point across, not fashion it into a pair of earrings. But we Irish are more interested in the journey than the destination, and every exchange presents an opportunity to dawdle, double back and doublespeak.
This is fair warning that 'That was an interesting variation' is not an encouragement.
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Post by mcfeeley »

I found a full online version of the article here (no subscription required):

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/07/30/ ... safire.php


Language: Learning to speak American

Marion McKeone The New York Times

Published: July 30, 2006

Some time ago, my sister spent several months working as an au pair for a wealthy family in Denver. When introducing her to their friends and relatives, the family would pointedly refer to her as "our Irish nanny." My sister assumed that her nationality was a point of pride; a genealogy
snake-oil salesman had just sold them an Irish ancestor for the price of a small country.

As it transpired, it was more of a red flag signaling that verbal roadworks were in progress - she hadn't yet learned to speak American. Her first lesson came on Christmas morning. The grandmother and family matriarch handed her an envelope. My sister, who was making the standard $50-a-week au pair's pittance, opened the envelope and found it thick with $20 bills. Fifty of them, to be precise.

"Oh, no," she protested. "I can't accept this. No. No, really. It's far too generous."

Grandma looked at her quizzically. "If you say so," she responded. Without further ado, she repossessed the envelope, removed a single $20 bill and handed it to her instead. "Is this about right?" she asked.

Helene swallowed her bile, bit her tongue and nodded mutely as she uttered silent curses. She had been speaking Irish, and Grandma had been speaking American. My sister's refusal of the money was meant to convey her gratitude and acceptance of the gift.

We Irish just can't say yes. Or no. It's not in our genes. In Irish Gaelic, we don't even have a word for them. The closest is "Is ea," which means "It is so." And "Ni hea," which means "It is not so." There are, however, about 50 different approximations that indicate various degrees of equivocation.

Our genetic inability to call a spade a spade and our compulsion to say no when we mean yes, and vice versa, are but surface manifestations of a deeply ingrained reflex to subvert, invert and pervert the English language. In Ireland, the words must fit the rhythm, often at the expense of logic or clarity.

Gaelic has its roots in the ancient Goidelic of the Celts. English comes from the Germanic. We may be geographic neighbors, but when it comes to linguistic traits, we're poles apart.

The great voices of Irish literature possess a unique ability to adapt to the uncomfortable imposition of the Queen's English on the Irish rhythm while remaining faithful to the ancient traditions of narrative and storytelling.

For Americans, the shortest distance between two points is a straight line. The idea is to get the point across. But we Irish are more interested in the journey than the destination, and every exchange presents an opportunity to dawdle.

The liberal, and frequently illogical, peppering of conversations with swear words by Irish writers is more a method of retaining a rhythmic pattern of speech than an expression of hostility. Shane MacGowan, founder and front man of the Pogues, colors his lyrics blue because it reflects the Irish way of speaking, of emphasis and underscoring a point.

MacGowan says that this Irish adaptation of English to its own ends stems as much from an innate rebelliousness as our inability to shake off the persistent rhythms of Irish Gaelic. We resisted the usurping of our native language and its replacement with English by confounding our oppressor with a form of linguistic jujitsu, he says, citing James Joyce's "Finnegans Wake" as an example: "Joyce was simply taking the inner Irish rhythm to the limit and imposing it on the English language. There were all these mad English language rules that don't work anyway. The entire book is about pointing out the absurdity of the English language."

Having grown up in a culture of ambivalence and allusion, I was initially astounded by the staccato, rapid-fire directness of American English. During my first visit to New York, I underwent the standard crash course in learning American. Hasty clarifications - like "craic," an Irish term for fun, but not of the variety you buy on a street corner - became less frequent.

I thought I had cracked the American language. Until I made a routine attempt to jaywalk across Fifth Avenue. I was frozen into a state of temporary paralysis by a New York cop who, having blocked my path, bellowed, inches from my face: "Whassamatterwitchya? Ya wanna be road pizza, ya [expletive] moron?" Having achieved his aim of saving my hide, he broke into an enormous grin. "I'm Irish-American," he said, by way of explanation for the explosive consequences that occur when Irish riddlespeak collides head-on with American directness.

Marion McKeone is an Irish journalist based in New York.
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Post by Bloomfield »

Having grown up in a culture of ambivalence and allusion, I was initially astounded by the staccato, rapid-fire directness of American English.
Funny. To Germans, Americans seem so roundabout in their speech, indirect and pussyfooting around the point. It's really refreshing to meet American speakers, who will say "that's wrong" when they mean it.
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Post by Flyingcursor »

Bloomfield wrote:
Having grown up in a culture of ambivalence and allusion, I was initially astounded by the staccato, rapid-fire directness of American English.
Funny. To Germans, Americans seem so roundabout in their speech, indirect and pussyfooting around the point. It's really refreshing to meet American speakers, who will say "that's wrong" when they mean it.
To this American, Americans seem so roundabout in their speech. I wonder if the author has ever sat through a corporate meeting.

"So Jim, were you able to find the bug in the code?"

"Well uh, Nancy Buckler and I went, uh, to lunch and, uh, afterward had a meeting with Ed over in IT security and Ed brought some bagels and um, we, um....."
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Post by Bloomfield »

Flyingcursor wrote:
Bloomfield wrote:
Having grown up in a culture of ambivalence and allusion, I was initially astounded by the staccato, rapid-fire directness of American English.
Funny. To Germans, Americans seem so roundabout in their speech, indirect and pussyfooting around the point. It's really refreshing to meet American speakers, who will say "that's wrong" when they mean it.
To this American, Americans seem so roundabout in their speech. I wonder if the author has ever sat through a corporate meeting.

"So Jim, were you able to find the bug in the code?"

"Well uh, Nancy Buckler and I went, uh, to lunch and, uh, afterward had a meeting with Ed over in IT security and Ed brought some bagels and um, we, um....."
No, no. That's wrong. ;)

This is how it goes: Nancy and I are in the process of beginning to explore our task approaches and are continuing to make progress in defining to-do items. At this point I'd like to commend Nancy for taking the labouring oar on scheduling, and wanted to run up the flagpole the concept of an effective deferral until after Labor Day.
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Post by dubhlinn »

The Irish version would be, "Ah sure we'll find the little whore sooner or later, anybody fancy a pint in the meantime?"

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Post by Nanohedron »

Flyingcursor wrote:
Bloomfield wrote:
Having grown up in a culture of ambivalence and allusion, I was initially astounded by the staccato, rapid-fire directness of American English.
Funny. To Germans, Americans seem so roundabout in their speech, indirect and pussyfooting around the point. It's really refreshing to meet American speakers, who will say "that's wrong" when they mean it.
To this American, Americans seem so roundabout in their speech. I wonder if the author has ever sat through a corporate meeting.

"So Jim, were you able to find the bug in the code?"

"Well uh, Nancy Buckler and I went, uh, to lunch and, uh, afterward had a meeting with Ed over in IT security and Ed brought some bagels and um, we, um....."
GAWD, that drives me up the wall. It's all I can do not to make a "C'mon, move it along, let's get to the point, shall we?" gesture when I get regaled with a freakin' personal blog when all I ask for is a bit of essential info. And I would, but the yappers are usually in a position to make life unpleasant for me. How I regret my good manners some days.
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Post by Flyingcursor »

Bloomfield wrote:
Flyingcursor wrote:
Bloomfield wrote: Funny. To Germans, Americans seem so roundabout in their speech, indirect and pussyfooting around the point. It's really refreshing to meet American speakers, who will say "that's wrong" when they mean it.
To this American, Americans seem so roundabout in their speech. I wonder if the author has ever sat through a corporate meeting.

"So Jim, were you able to find the bug in the code?"

"Well uh, Nancy Buckler and I went, uh, to lunch and, uh, afterward had a meeting with Ed over in IT security and Ed brought some bagels and um, we, um....."
No, no. That's wrong. ;)

This is how it goes: Nancy and I are in the process of beginning to explore our task approaches and are continuing to make progress in defining to-do items. At this point I'd like to commend Nancy for taking the labouring oar on scheduling, and wanted to run up the flagpole the concept of an effective deferral until after Labor Day.
That's hard-core. I've endured both types unfortunately.
The Irish version would be, "Ah sure we'll find the little whore sooner or later, anybody fancy a pint in the meantime?"
Everytime I've spoken like that I've been accused of not being serious enough about the "issue".
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Post by The Weekenders »

If a person speaks bluntly, it's often perceived as a sign of backwardness or ignorance. A great cultural schism, within the US, exists in such usage.

I have long lived with the double whammy of sounding too sophisticated among my rancher family and friends, but not sophisticated enough around my artistic and intellectual friends and acquaintances. I learned not to let it bother me. I keep hoping people will be refreshed by some variety....
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Post by peeplj »

You should also be warned that there is not consistency from region to region in the United States.

Not only does language vary, but customs and social conventions do also.

These differences can be quite profound.

The common stereotype, which has already been ground into the mire in movies and on television, is of the blunt, direct Yankee who is perceived as being rude, insulting, and thick-witted in the South; whereas someone from the South visiting the North will be perceived as slow, lethargic, and dim.

There is some truth in these cliches, but there is much more to it than that.

In my 20's, I had some training in a little Wisconsin town called Hartford. Nice place, but I definitely experienced some culture shock. The waitresses in the resteraunts would come and ask me to read them things off of the menu, and then burst into gales of delighted laughter.

I also found out that in the North, what you call "dressing" (as in "turkey and dressing") is a sort of nasty meat-flavored jello, and has no bread in it at all. I still shudder, remembering that. :o :lol:

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Post by uilleannified »

I suspect the author did not stay too long in the US and did not travel too far.

Her ideas about how Americans use English makes me howl! Maybe in some corner of Newyork, or even more so in Chicago, you'd get the finger instead of a hand shake, but thats about it.

Elsewhere, in the South for example, folks speak well - in good English - and are genteel.

So to me, this wee lass shows what is really true about Irish folk - esp those who are not travelled - they take a molehill and make a mountain of it, but go to great trouble so the reader thinks it was always a mountain.

The gift of the gab? maybe, but gaelicised English, naw.
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Post by Nanohedron »

peeplj wrote:I also found out that in the North, what you call "dressing" (as in "turkey and dressing") is a sort of nasty meat-flavored jello, and has no bread in it at all. I still shudder, remembering that. :o :lol:
The above (as a US Northerner, I would not countenance such a culinary oafishness. Dressing must have bread. Period. It has always been thus, else just plain wrong, not that I'd have the bad grace to tell the unfortunate cook. Given dressing and waitresses, Hartford sounds like a rather benighted community, I'm afraid) nicely compresses what I have to say: I see strange generalisations all around in this thread. I have met not a few terse and verbally unimaginitive Irish. I'll leave it at that.
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