Celtic Music

[Uilliam]

a football team in Scotland
Redwolf

A footba team!!! A footba team!!!

THE FOOTBA TEAM Hail Hail The Bhoys
Slán Go Foill
Uilliam
PS This topic is a bit awry,given that most of the music played in the traditonal format was heavily influenced by just about every country within hearing and dancing distance.Jigs(Giga) Polkas Mazurka Waltzes etc etc

[djm]

This topic is a bit awry,given that most of the music played in the traditonal format was heavily influenced by just about every country within hearing and dancing distance.Jigs(Giga) Polkas Mazurka Waltzes etc etc

EXACTLY!!!!!

(Oh, God! I'm agreeing with Uilliam. Help me!)

djm

[Lambchop]

This topic is a bit awry,given that most of the music played in the traditonal format was heavily influenced by just about every country within hearing and dancing distance.Jigs(Giga) Polkas Mazurka Waltzes etc etc

EXACTLY!!!!!

(Oh, God! I'm agreeing with Uilliam. Help me!)

djm

Don't fight it, dear. It becomes you.

[smithand]

PS This topic is a bit awry,given that most of the music played in the traditonal format was heavily influenced by just about every country within hearing and dancing distance.Jigs(Giga) Polkas Mazurka Waltzes etc etc

And the instruments are mostly pan-European too, and surely many of the ornamental techniques in Irish music derive from the baroque, which was certainly a strong influence on Welsh music, where counterpoint has an important part, and the Welsh triple harp was originally a baroque instrument. But I don't think that rules out an identity for Celtic music in itself. Anyway, I'm just enjoying exploring the subject.

What about English music? Surely much of Scottish and Welsh traditional music has a lot in common with English music? And does Breton music have more in common with French music than with the music of the other Celtic countries?

Best Wishes

Andrew

[smithand]

a football team in Scotland
Redwolf

A footba team!!! A footba team!!!

THE FOOTBA TEAM Hail Hail The Bhoys
Slán Go Foill
Uilliam
PS This topic is a bit awry,given that most of the music played in the traditonal format was heavily influenced by just about every country within hearing and dancing distance.Jigs(Giga) Polkas Mazurka Waltzes etc etc

Just to be contentious, "Celtic" music also has influences from all over the place, so this surely places it in the direct line of the tradition, n'est ce pas?

Andrew

[SteveShaw]

The Glasgow football team is "seltic." There is no other acceptable pronunciation of this word, as in all other contexts bar none it should be avoided like the plague.

[smithand]

As I continue to argue with myself: what about Latin American music? Does this exist as an entity? Or Eastern European music? Or Scandinavian music? Or Indian music, etc.? Why are these designations any different to Celtic music?

[Nanohedron]

As I continue to argue with myself: what about Latin American music? Does this exist as an entity? Or Eastern European music? Or Scandinavian music? Or Indian music, etc.? Why are these designations any different to Celtic music?

The usual objection has been stated, but I'll repeat it: the word "Celtic" has been suborned in popular culture by a new-agey, airy-fairy, mysticalicious aesthetic to such a pass that it no longer means musically (or otherwise, for that matter) what it ought to: that is, simply, referring to nothing more than cultures that speak or used to speak Celtic languages: the Irish, Scots, Welsh, Bretons, Galicians, and the Manx and Cornish, too.

That's why the knee-jerk reaction. When I tell people I play Irish Trad, I have learned to be prepared for someone to gush about Loreena McKennitt, for example. Fair play to her, but her music ain't Trad. It's "Celtic" in the new, popular sense.

And if people think that makes me a snob, they should think again. It just means I shy away from the term "Celtic" except among my own fellow Tradsters so as to avoid confusion.

[talasiga]

The usual objection has been stated, but I'll repeat it: the word "Celtic" has been suborned in popular culture by a new-agey, airy-fairy, mysticalicious aesthetic to such a pass that it no longer means musically (or otherwise, for that matter) what it ought to......

and so because the pop major may think that Indian means you jump out of a bed of nails in the morning and tie your turban and do bhangra exercises before a hearty breakfast of semolina halva and ganges water
and
Nepalese means you live in a house atop a mountain and you peel your apple with a khukri
I should dispense with describing my ancestry as Indo-Nepalese?

darlings, there is celtic and there is celtoid.

[SteveShaw]

The usual objection has been stated, but I'll repeat it: the word "Celtic" has been suborned in popular culture by a new-agey, airy-fairy, mysticalicious aesthetic to such a pass that it no longer means musically (or otherwise, for that matter) what it ought to: that is, simply, referring to nothing more than cultures that speak or used to speak Celtic languages: the Irish, Scots, Welsh, Bretons, Galicians, and the Manx and Cornish, too.

You're tripping up over yourself. Whilst I agree with your airy-fairy, etc. bit, the use of "celtic" to refer to those languages you list has no more meaning than it does than when it's applied to traditional music. The allusion is just as airy-fairy.

[talasiga]

from this site

While the interrelationships of the more recent and well-attested Celtic languages are well-understood, the nature of the earlier splits is not agreed. The traditional view is that the Continental languages (Gaulish, Celtiberian, Lepontic etc.) form one group, in opposition to the Insular languages (which themselves fall into two uncontroversial groups: Goidelic and Brittonic). This is supported by the similarity of the verbal system in the latter two branches, which differs strongly from the Continental systems, insofar as these are known. More recent views, however, connect Brittonic and Gaulish (and perhaps Lepontic) more closely in a Gallo-Brittonic subfamily, though without suggesting a close relationship between Goidelic and Celtiberian. This view is supported mainly by proposed phonological innovations.

so put that in your padstow pastry and pummel it, SS!

[SteveShaw]

from this site

While the interrelationships of the more recent and well-attested Celtic languages are well-understood, the nature of the earlier splits is not agreed. The traditional view is that the Continental languages (Gaulish, Celtiberian, Lepontic etc.) form one group, in opposition to the Insular languages (which themselves fall into two uncontroversial groups: Goidelic and Brittonic). This is supported by the similarity of the verbal system in the latter two branches, which differs strongly from the Continental systems, insofar as these are known. More recent views, however, connect Brittonic and Gaulish (and perhaps Lepontic) more closely in a Gallo-Brittonic subfamily, though without suggesting a close relationship between Goidelic and Celtiberian. This view is supported mainly by proposed phonological innovations.

so put that in your padstow pastry and pummel it, SS!

Heheh. I assume you mean "pasty." If you're ever in Padstow I'll show you where to buy a super pasty. All very intriguing, but what I'm driving at is that the word has become useless because of misuse or hijacking, and we should aim for greater precision when discussing the various musics and languages that scoundrels put into the "celtic" category, either through their cloudy thinking or because of their need to jump on a commercial bandwagon. I have yet to meet a denizen of these parts who would care to proclaim that they're celtic and proud of it. It's merely something that the tackier variety of gift shops and craft stalls cash in on.

[Nanohedron]

The usual objection has been stated, but I'll repeat it: the word "Celtic" has been suborned in popular culture by a new-agey, airy-fairy, mysticalicious aesthetic to such a pass that it no longer means musically (or otherwise, for that matter) what it ought to: that is, simply, referring to nothing more than cultures that speak or used to speak Celtic languages: the Irish, Scots, Welsh, Bretons, Galicians, and the Manx and Cornish, too.

You're tripping up over yourself. Whilst I agree with your airy-fairy, etc. bit, the use of "celtic" to refer to those languages you list has no more meaning than it does than when it's applied to traditional music. The allusion is just as airy-fairy.

Okay, I'll bite. How so?

[SteveShaw]

The usual objection has been stated, but I'll repeat it: the word "Celtic" has been suborned in popular culture by a new-agey, airy-fairy, mysticalicious aesthetic to such a pass that it no longer means musically (or otherwise, for that matter) what it ought to: that is, simply, referring to nothing more than cultures that speak or used to speak Celtic languages: the Irish, Scots, Welsh, Bretons, Galicians, and the Manx and Cornish, too.

You're tripping up over yourself. Whilst I agree with your airy-fairy, etc. bit, the use of "celtic" to refer to those languages you list has no more meaning than it does than when it's applied to traditional music. The allusion is just as airy-fairy.

Okay, I'll bite. How so?

I explained it in the post just up from yours. The word has forfeited whatever application it had (tenuous to say the least) both to music and languages by dint of its regular misuse either by new-age types (wearisome folks to say the least) or by commercial bandwagonistas. There are no "celtic peoples" in any case, and never were. 'Tis a romantic notion of no substance. I am listed elsewhere on the internet in a "celtic harmonica discography." Aarrgh.

[Nanohedron]

I am listed elsewhere on the internet in a "celtic harmonica discography." Aarrgh.

It's a punishment for your sins, to be sure.