Am Tunes with D Drone

[Nanohedron]

(This isn't necessarily for the pipers' forum, although the practice can be said to come from the pipes; I've heard fiddles and such do the same thing.)

For me, the majority of Am and Amix tunes somehow don't do so well with the D drone, but (again, this is just me) there are exceptions. The song air "After Dawning" and the jig "Sliabh Russell" are two that seem to get a whole new interpretation that works very nicely to my ears when set against the D drone effect.

Any other Am/mix tunes that work as well in the same way for you? Yes, I'm sort of "collecting" at this time.

[Ro3b]

This is very cool, and probably something I do too much. By throwing a D drone under an A dorian tune, or even just using D as a sub for the Am chord, you effectively change the tonal center of the tune to G. I can think of quite a few precedents. Planxty's recording of "The Knotted Cord" is harmonized this way; for years I thought it was in G. The Bothy Band kicked in a D drone the third time through the "Pipe on the Hob." Going back a bit further, Leo Rowesome used a D drone throughout the "The Ballintore Jig" set, even though the first tune is ostensibly in A minor and ends on a C. It's a wild sound.

A couple of other places I do this consistently are the second part of "Maids of Mt. Cisco" and the third part of the "Gravel Walk."

[talasiga]

My understanding is that generally the drone is the tonic of the mode.
So, if you are singing A Dorian or A Mixo you would use an A drone.

The D drone would of course work well harmonicly because D is the sub dominant harmonic for A tonic. It depends on what flavour you wish to evoke.

I feel there is a gestalt that occurs even though the drone may not articulate the tonic but the sub dominant. I feel the listeners and players hear the tonic drone inside their being. The sub dominant implies it for the tonic is its dominant harmonic. (A similar result is not evinced by using the dominant as the sole drone because the E will evoke the B as its harmonic. You can try an E drone (dominant harmonic) and you will see it does not work for A tonic stuff. The only way to include a dominant in the drone is to ensconce it with strong tonics as is done in the indic trad.)

I just now went over to my Raagini drone box and set D drone while I played some A Kaafi (dorian) riffs on my Sweet whistle. There is something quite misty and magical about a sole sub dominant drone.
I believe it is the Irish gift to the melodic drone traditions.

[Chiffed]

Neat. I just tried this, and I think I know what's going on. D drone, tune in Am, and it comes out in the key of G. Odd.

In psychoacoustics, we occasionally analyse music not by what is played, but by what is heard. The ear may interpret harmonic members (especially drones or pedals) as members of the harmonic series of another note. We quite often hear low notes in the wrong octave, especially when the timbre is 'flutey' (emphasizing the odd numbered partials). When the timbre is 'reedy' (emphasizing even partials) one can hear the tone a fifth or twelfth lower.

By this theory, one could be hearing a D drone, not as a D, but as the 4th partial of G. D is much more distant in A's harmonic series - around the twelfth, I think. The ear tends to find the closest acoustic relationships.

Also, the Am triad is the 9th, 11th, and 13th of a G chord. Gotta work those jazz extensions in somehow.

Edit: I just reread the previous post and find I'm a bit redundant. I'd add, however, that the dominant drone sounds fine to me, after a while.

[Nanohedron]

By throwing a D drone under an A dorian tune, or even just using D as a sub for the Am chord, you effectively change the tonal center of the tune to G.

D drone, tune in Am, and it comes out in the key of G. Odd.

Interesting. Am I the only one who hears the result as a tune in D instead of Am/mix/whatever, then? By using the D drone, the character of the tune changes, becomes more oblique, I suppose you could say, but I still hear it as a tune based in D, not to my ears G. Unless I'm missing something here...

[Ro3b]

You can try an E drone (dominant harmonic) and you will see it does not work for A tonic stuff. The only way to include a dominant in the drone is to ensconce it with strong tonics as is done in the indic trad.)

So, do you find it doesn't work when Irish pipers play their D drones with tunes in G?

[Ro3b]

Interesting. Am I the only one who hears the result as a tune in D instead of Am/mix/whatever, then? By using the D drone, the character of the tune changes, becomes more oblique, I suppose you could say, but I still hear it as a tune based in D, not to my ears G. Unless I'm missing something here...

Hm, maybe I need to try your ears on. Your average A dorian tune (e.g. the Rainy Day, the Congress Reel, the Killaloe Boat, etc.) generally moves between Am and G chords. Putting a D drone under that makes the Am bits imply a D chord, while the G bits remain unchanged since D is a note in the G triad. So instead of i and VII chords in A dorian, you end up with V and I chords in G, or I and IV chords in D (which I guess is what you're hearing). In a lot of these tunes it's all pretty ambiguous anyway, especially when you get into something like Pipe on the Hob with those big whanging C naturals. Shrug?

[Nanohedron]

Shrug.

[Cathy Wilde]

Whoa, this is cool. I can hear it in my head a bit with the Pipe on the Hob or the Congress, but not so much the Rainy Day because I've always heard that in my rat-brain as having an E tonic (don't ask me why), and the D just clobbers it.

But wow. Really interesting. I'd like to try that. Thanks!

[Nanohedron]

This is very cool, and probably something I do too much.

I have to echo the above. When playing backup for A tunes in general, I'll use a D chord particularly at the end of a turn when it ends in what would normally call for an A chord; sort of like a tension-and-release setup. It's most effective to my ears on A Dorian and A Mixolydian-type tunes, and I try not to do too much of it. Same thing with E Dorian: I'll use G instead of E to the same purpose. With D minor and Dmix, G serves.

[Ro3b]

Whoa, this is cool. I can hear it in my head a bit with the Pipe on the Hob or the Congress, but not so much the Rainy Day because I've always heard that in my rat-brain as having an E tonic (don't ask me why), and the D just clobbers it.

Do you have the Molloy/Brady/Peoples album? On one track Paul Brady flatpicks the Rainy Day over a D uilleann pipe drone; it's wicked stuff.

[talasiga]

You can try an E drone (dominant harmonic) and you will see it does not work for A tonic stuff. The only way to include a dominant in the drone is to ensconce it with strong tonics as is done in the indic trad.)

So, do you find it doesn't work when Irish pipers play their D drones with tunes in G?

You need to comprehend my comment in the context of the whole of my post. The point about the A tonic is a point about A mixo and A dorian which are the 2 modes playable and played on a simple system D pipe. To my ear the sub dominant drone works as well as a tonic drone (if not more mysteriously/irishly) whereas the dominant drone by itself not at all.

Now, what happens with G tonic on a D pipe? You get a different mode, don't you? The modes that are playable with G tonic are Lydian (not relevant in ITM) and Ionian. G Ionian is not G Mixo or G Dorian is it?
What are the harmonic implications of that? One is that Ionian does not have a flatted 7th which increases the harmonic power of the sub dominant in Dorian, Mixolydian and Aeolian. As you would know the interval relationship between a flatted 7th and the subdominant = tonic to dominant.

Of course you don't have to think about all this when you play in a tradition which is fairly fixed in its key/s and uses instruments that reflect that. You sorta get the arrangements ready made.

[Bloomfield]

You can try an E drone (dominant harmonic) and you will see it does not work for A tonic stuff. The only way to include a dominant in the drone is to ensconce it with strong tonics as is done in the indic trad.)

So, do you find it doesn't work when Irish pipers play their D drones with tunes in G?

You need to comprehend my comment in the context of the whole of my post. ...

You ask the impossible.

[talasiga]

The context of my post is a discussion of A tonic dorian and mixolydian melodies using a sub dominant drone (D). Please see topic title et seq.

If you keep this in mind Bloomfield, minor oversights in expression, unusual and innovative modes of emphasis and capricious turns of phrase will not confuse you.

In a like vein, I continue to acknowledge the goodwill and expertise of the moderators despite some unusual and, IMO, capricious examples of moderation.

You can save yourself a lot of confusion by cognising context. As a special dictum Bloomfield, just for you, talasiga uvaca,
"the meta context of the universe is Chaos".

[Cathy Wilde]

Whoa, this is cool. I can hear it in my head a bit with the Pipe on the Hob or the Congress, but not so much the Rainy Day because I've always heard that in my rat-brain as having an E tonic (don't ask me why), and the D just clobbers it.

Do you have the Molloy/Brady/Peoples album? On one track Paul Brady flatpicks the Rainy Day over a D uilleann pipe drone; it's wicked stuff.

Darnit, no! But it's funny you should mention that ... I think I just heard something on the Molloy/Keane/O'Flynn (is it "The Fire Aflame?" danged iPods mix everything up!) that seemed akin to what you're talking about. I was on the tractor, though, and got distracted by a kildeer nest or something before I could fish the iPod out and find out what it was.

I'll get the other. I'd like to hear their version of the Rainy Day; I only have Paddy O'Brien's. A box-playing pal here does his Girl that Broke My Heart/Rainy Day/Captain Kelly set, and although I almost die of a F-natural induced shock by the end of the first tune, it's a blast.